[Pattsi]

WHO and CDC doesn’t make their recommendations lightly, some author need to get real, these days they don’t even bother to gel it.

[Pattsi]

AnnaUnce said:

I was thinking in terms of Ashland or Croda

for 500g? May I ask what are you ordering?

You can try asking their local suppliers if they can make 500g PO for you but I don’t think they would. Or ask if there are other companies ordering the same thing, you might try asking them if you can perhaps split the bill.

Small scale suppliers have their SDS, MSDS, lot numbers, etc. too.

[Pattsi]

elirit said:

Graillotion said:

BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream.  This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more.

Thank you! I read the same info on lotioncrafter earlier. Today I bought cetyl esters and 165 and alkyl benzoate to trial. Yesterday I decreased eumulgin to 0.5% and 68 to 3.5%(still soapy). Also, does tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate interact with 165 as I have that in my formula. I read it interacts with PEG on one site but have not seen that on other sites. Lastly,  I have 0.4 % xanthan gum in my formula. If the cream is already thick with 68, is there a need for the gum or was it added due to stability? Thanks again. Btw, my cosmetic chemist disappeared after I recceived formula so that is why I am asking certain questions regarding my formula.

You paid for this formula “ ( Emulgin SG 1%, Liposorb 1%, and Olivem 1000 6%)”? Not saying it’s a bad formula but it’s seem strange to me.

elirit said:

Yes you are right regarding pleasing everyone. Lol @bug food. I think I will try the 165 without emulgin at a higher percentage and see how it goes. I think I just got nervous because I see a lot of formulas on markst with 3 different emulsifiers. Thank you:)

But not all emulsifiers were used at high %. Start with primary emulsifier and then you can add 1 or 2 co-emulsifier(s) if you like.

for example. - https://formulabotanica.com/organic-emulsion-olivem-1000/

PHASE A

25.0% – Organic poppy seed oil 25.0%
5.0% – Olivem 1000

PHASE B

Up toto 100.0% – Freshly boiled distilled water
0.1% – Dermofeel PA-3 (chelating agent, antioxidant)

PHASE C

4.0% – Organic 99.8% glycerine
0.4% – Solagum AX (a proprietary blend of acacia and xanthan gum)

PHASE D

0.5% – Natural Tocopherol

PHASE E

A few drops of 25% NaOH solution
1.3% – Versatil TBG (our preservative with INCI Name: Triethyl Citrate (and) Glyceryl Caprylate (and) Benzoic Acid)

start simple and then you can change something to match what you like.

for example - If I want it to be a little bit thicker, I would add Fatty Alcohol 3% and Emuligin SG 0.1% as a co-emulsifier for stability.

so my new 

PHASE A 

21.9% – Organic poppy seed oil 25.0%
5.0% – Olivem 1000
3.0% - Cetyl Alcohol
0.1% - Emuligin SG

then you can adjust it little by little.

Same go if you should use Montanov 68, Montanov 202, etc.

[Pattsi]

mariaagarcia said:

Try Sunflower oil, it contains fatty acid that helps to prevent skin infection. It has antioxidant and anti-flammatory properties that help to develop new cells in the skin. OR
You can try Aloe Vera. It has antibacterial and antiviral properties that is good for dry skin, acne, and sensitive skin. 

Can you please explain more about sunflower oil - prevent skin infection and Aloe Vera - antibacterial and antiviral properties?

[Pattsi]

20% urea is prescription dose - alone or in combination with other drugs for Keratolytic effect used in Psoriasis and other hyperkeratosis lesions.
You probably be fine with 5% in your moisturizer.

[Pattsi]

Thank you @emma1985 I am really bad with preservative system.

[Pattsi]

Alcohol-based sanitizer is not cosmetics.
Temporary Policy for Preparation of Certain Alcohol-Based Hand Sanitizer Products During the Public Health Emergency (COVID-19) – Enabling entities that are not currently registered drug manufacturers the ability to temporarily register as over-the-counter (OTC) drug manufacturers and prepare alcohol-based hand sanitizers during the COVID-19 public health emergency.
Typically IPA was used in hospital and other industries.

[Pattsi]

Herbnerd said:

Pattsi said:

LOVE is pretty normal to me, if someone declare SEX or ORGASM that would be more exciting.

@Pa@Pattsi Does Salmon sperm count? (well, maybe not for LOVE!)

Good point!

Herbnerd said:

Sheep placenta is a common ingredient used in cosmetic products from New Zealand. The Chinese love that stuff.

Though I did hear it was a popular product amongst African Americans, until the residual hormones present in placenta started interrupting their cycles.

Sheep placenta is a by-product of the slaughterhouse - along with stabilised amniotic fluid (Yes, this is real too) and sometimes the whole uterus along with placenta and lamb is used to produce the “extract”.

One job I had, and sadly this is true, was to develop a range of placenta beverages for the Asian market. You cannot begin to imagine how disgusting the smell was. People who worked with me at the time certainly have never forgotten.

Actually I have horse placenta sunscreen from Australia and sheep placenta moisturizer from New Zealand on my table right now. 

I’m thinking, for our next serum I have to go bigger maybe Dinosaur placenta I guess.

[Pattsi]

@Benz3ne Nothing to apologies for, I believe Perry started this site for sharing information and such, I too learned a lot from people with great knowledge and expertise in this community.

[Pattsi]

Sterile water for irrigation is distilled water(medical grade) - hypotonic, you can pretty much use it since you already have it. I use it sometimes when I’m DIYing at home.
Normal saline solution is 0.9% NaCl solution - isotonic, can’t be used in formulation.

[Pattsi]

try using commercial blend like Viscolam® AT 100/P

[Pattsi]

twokchu said:

Active Complex (by customer)	15
Aloe Vera Extract	2
Avocado Exract	2
KEM CP	0.36

15% - Is there a possibility there’re cyclodextrin or gelling agents in there?

[Pattsi]

ngarayeva001 said:

Oh wait I forgot about Goop! They have anti vampire spray with: black tourmaline, lapis lazuli, ruby, labradorite, bloodstone, aqua aura, black onyx, garnet, pyrite and nuummite; reiki, sound waves, moonlight, love, reiki charged crystals. Everyone knows you need garlic to scare vampires away. I don’t know what they were thinking!

Goop’s skin cares are pretty normal tho. But their accessories and lifestyles and so on was the real gimmick and they successfully created their own cult.

At this point, nothing really surprises me anymore.

Last year( I think ), there’s a Korean hospital’s brand came up with this product
https://commonlabsmalaysia.com/products/commonlabs-vitamin-e-micro-needle-spot-cream-10ml
It had me puzzled how they passed registration because Hydrolyzed Sponge and its claim clearly render it out of cosmetics boundary.

LOVE is pretty normal to me, if someone declare SEX or ORGASM that would be more exciting.

[Pattsi]

165 - It’s cheap.

[Pattsi]

Pharma said:

Dermal reaction to certain cereals is more likely a common allergy rather than coeliac disease although the latter may be so severe and persisting for so long (because of non-cereal-abstinent nutrition) that antibodies are built against cereal proteins. Though this scenario is hypothetical, involves to a lot of bad luck, and likely requires some type of skin issue as well.

Or it’s an imaginary reaction or, especially in kids, a pseudo-allergy.

These days some folks take gluten intolerance to another level and some love to diax themselves.

Zink said:

A reference to a dermatology book in Portuguese that’s not available online doesn’t convince me topical gluten sensitivity is impossible, I’m not claiming it’s common but I don’t think that enough to rule it out.

Jacques CMC. Ramos-e-Silva M, Castro MCR. Fundamentos de Dermatologia. Rio de Janeiro: Atheneu; 2009. Dermatite herpetiforme e dermatose por IgA Linear; pp. 653–658. [Google Scholar]

There’s some anecdotal evidence hinting to the possibility: 

“…it is my clinical experience that several patients with celiac disease and dermatitis herpetiformis have reported reactions to what appears to be topical exposure to gluten (or air-borne in the case of hair spray) in body care products and that this reaction resolved once they stopped using the gluten-containing product. We do not know for certain if it was a gluten-containing ingredient or some other ingredient that caused the reaction, or if the product was tested for gluten. However, each of us knows our own body best. I support my patients who follow a gluten-free diet in selecting cosmetics free of gluten, in particular lip products and hair and face lotion, should they choose to do so.”

https://nationalceliac.org/celiac-disease-questions/using-gluten-free-skin-body-products-someone-celiac-disease/

Nothing is 100% impossible and you never know if some people might eat their moisturizers.

Gluten-free is interesting market, but is it big nuff to invest in, you will have to decide urself. 

Any way to get certified? - In my little knowledge, there’s https://gfco.org/about-us/ certification for cosmetics.
Don’t know how much is it tho.  

[Pattsi]

She shouldn’t eat her cosmetics then.

Dermatitis herpetiformis
Topical or intradermal application of gluten is not sufficient to trigger typical DH lesions, demonstrating that the development of this disease involves intestinal exposure to gluten.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4230654/

[Pattsi]

crillz said:

I’m in Australia. Been searching but, I don’t think we need to register simple products. 
Yeah now I also agree it’s a good idea to list ingredients even on a gift. Thanks.

I think you will have to identify your “product(?)” first.

product 
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/product
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/product
usually for sale.
meaning - It is subjected to the EU Cosmetic Products Regulations stipulate that a product must be registered before distribution, including samples.
like Benz3ne and ozgirl mentioed.

If you identify it as a gift for friend, you probly don’t need to get it registered. Like homemade Christmas cookies i guess. 
But as other members mentioned about allergy, it won’t hurt writing your list of ingredients.

If it is a gift for customer like cosmetics gift set, your product will have to be registered. 

or you can call your FDA directly to be surething.

Printing out a sticker with a beautiful design and include list of ingredients might impress your friend with your formulating skill even more.

pls pardon my English and grammar for today 
anyway happy holidays and happy formulating.

[Pattsi]

emma1985 said:

Hi, 

I’m looking to make my facial emulsions provide longer lasting moisturization. I already use some plant butters but because they are used in small concentrations I feel like the moisturization doesn’t last as long as I would like. I also already use Dimethicone in small concentrations. 

I’m not interested in using petrolatum or mineral oil.

I was considering using tiny concentrations of beeswax or other waxes….does anyone have any thoughts on this? Lotioncrafter sells Rice Bran Wax which looks interesting (I’m a huge fan of Rice Bran Oil.) I don’t want a waxy texture obviously so, again, the wax would be used in small concentrations. 

I came across a product called Brassica Campestris Aleurites Fordi Oil Copolymer. It’s advertised as an emollient occlusive. Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Any suggestions for occlusive plant oils? 

Please let me know if you have any other ideas. Thank you so much. 

How long do you expect your moisturizer’s occlusive-ness to last?
4-6hrs, 6-12hrs, 12-24hrs
Rice bran wax is nice. How about Jojoba?
Don’t know how small you will be using so don’t know you will get what you r aiming for or not.

[Pattsi]

Tridecyl Trimellitate + Isostearyl Isostearate

[Pattsi]

From my limited experience in marketing.

1. Marketing makes your product seen. Retail guarantees your product will be seen to some extents.

2. As Perry stated above. Marketing makes an impression and boots sales when needed. In highly competitive market, an established brand like Pantene  etc. still do Marketing. You have to be relevant or you might end up being a one hit wonder.

3. For a drugstore/Ulta/Sephora - If you see a repeat L/C that is a good sign or if your product underperform they will politely tell you off when your contract is expired.

4. Product lifecycle - average/good/great depends on Marketing cycle. If it past a year or past half of expiration date and you don’t see money coming back that is not a good sign.

5. Most of the product cost goes into marketing.
If you order 10,000+ units basic model directly from packaging plant that will significantly lower your cost or if you want your own molding would be around 20k-30k extra for 1 design.
Promoting new facial moisturizer in some case use up to 70% in first month. But each company have their own way of working their strategies and now with online marketing it is easier to launch a cosmetic product from start-up business 50/50 of budget for product/marketing.

These are just my humble opinions. 

[Pattsi]

From my limited experience in marketing - negative perception with EDTA - no or should I say not yet.
There’s Origins with no EDTA.  Some cream from Lancôme, Clarins, etc. with no EDTA.
Is there any marketing benefit of using sodium phytate? all-natural claim is a big plus if it does perform well.

[Pattsi]

This would likely make “no all parabens” hyped up even more.

[Pattsi]

Pharma said:

Pattsi said:

…
Anyone heard about the price? If it will cost me up to $1,000-$1,500 , I would rather not.
…

The version only with the homogeniser attachment costs around $ 300 if purchased in Europe from an official retailer.

suswang8 said:

You can buy the standard Dynamic blender, with multiple attachments, for $150 or so, if you shop around in the US, and this should give decent results (not professional) as long as you don’t make batches smaller than 250g or so.  But if you want quasi-professional results or want to do batches as small as 150g or so, you will need the MiniPro Blender Tool (rotor stator head), which typically costs around $200 additional (more than the blender itself).  And you are correct, at the end of the day, you at least have a nice hand blender to use.  A huge consideration is if you want to be able to do small batches.  That, for me, is key, but it may not be for you.    

Thanks a lot guys/girls. - Think I would go for Rotilabo because I will be making small batches, 100g is ideal for me.   

[Pattsi]

suswang8 said:

Also, on what speed setting are you able to comfortable use it?  I can see from this video, the person can’t safely take it past 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHBO2O2b5rs&t=757s

Thanks again.

Interesting - If it doesn’t work at least I can use it to blend my soup.
Anyone heard about the price? If it will cost me up to $1,000-$1,500 , I would rather not.

suswang8 said:

In other news, do we know anyone who owns this Rotilabo (Carl Roth) tool?  I assume it is basically a Dremel, but I am not sure? 

They sell the attachments separately.  I guess I could use this in a Dremel?  Does the shape of the tip look like it would blend/homogenize well?   :*

very interesting - affordable, if it doesn’t work at least I will have one more drill or maybe use it to blend my soup, but well the total length is 90 mm might not reach the pot’s bottom. 

[Pattsi]

8%, 10%, 20% Aluminium Chlorohydrate powder - very high electrolyte, you will need a specific emulsifier designed for that job.

For DIYing a cheap hand blender/stick blender will do.