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Home Cosmetic Science Talk Cosmetic Industry Consumer perception regarding chelators…….

  • Consumer perception regarding chelators…….

    Posted by Graillotion on November 13, 2020 at 5:59 am

    I am putting the finishing touches on a high end face cream.  I have tried to keep things on the natural side, including using sodium phytate vs the EDTA that I have used in other products.

    I have found that with EDTA, the pH lands right where I want it….no adjustment needed.  Using the sodium phytate even at .2%, I have to adjust the pH down.

    I asked a few skin care junkies….and they seemed to not really care what chelator was in there….they focused on other ingredients.

    Just wanted to hear from the group….if there is much in the way of negative perception with EDTA.  Or maybe I will ask it in reverse…. Is there any marketing benefit of using sodium phytate?

    Abdullah replied 1 year, 11 months ago 8 Members · 14 Replies
  • 14 Replies
  • Abdullah

    Member
    February 22, 2021 at 1:43 am

    Thanks @jemolian

  • jemolian

    Member
    February 22, 2021 at 12:51 am
  • Graillotion

    Member
    February 21, 2021 at 9:51 pm

    I ended up landing on Tetrasodium glutamate diacetate.

    Any negatives with that one?

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    February 21, 2021 at 8:18 pm

    I use EDTA with electrolytes sensitive polymers. It doesn’t cause any problems at 0.2%

  • Dr Catherine Pratt

    Member
    February 21, 2021 at 4:38 pm

    From a natural stand point, do not use EDTA!!! and you can buy citric acid from the supermarket, it is not expensive and you don’t have to buy a lot!

  • Abdullah

    Member
    February 21, 2021 at 10:54 am

    For me sodium phytate increases the pH at any amount and for each %0.1 s phytate i add %0.05 citric acid. 

    For EDTA marketing, show your ingredient list to your friends and ask them what are the 3 ingredients you don’t like the most or don’t like the name if they don’t know what they are. This way you can find what people don’t like the most from what you are selling.

    I can’t open The Prospector page about sodium phytate. Can anyone send it to me in PDF, screenshot or any other format. 

  • jemolian

    Member
    November 18, 2020 at 5:47 am

    For my moisturizer i’m already using Sepitonic M3 which contains minerals, so if i add any more electrolytes i’d have to change to another co-thickener and up the cost to perhaps Sepimax from Ultrez 20, haha. I don’t think there’s any issues if i just use the sodium phytate without other electrolytes.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    November 18, 2020 at 5:31 am

    jemolian said:

    Probably because not many people looked into it i guess? But even with the sodium phytate, normally i don’t expect people to use more than 0.2% ? It would still have some moisturization or sebum regulating benefits at lower amounts. 

    I’m interested to use it unfortunately it don’t go well with polymerics, which is why i’m using in inositol instead for similar benefits, less the chelating effect. 

    Why do you say it does not go well with polymerics?
    I am using it with them?  What is the issue?  You mean just the whole electrolyte thing?  I think at .2%…it is not an issue.

  • jemolian

    Member
    November 18, 2020 at 5:07 am

    Probably because not many people looked into it i guess? But even with the sodium phytate, normally i don’t expect people to use more than 0.2% ? It would still have some moisturization or sebum regulating benefits at lower amounts. 

    I’m interested to use it unfortunately it don’t go well with polymerics, which is why i’m using in inositol instead for similar benefits, less the chelating effect. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    November 18, 2020 at 4:57 am

    jemolian said:

    In terms of marketing benefits of sodium phytate, see here 
    https://www.ulprospector.com/documents/1197592.pdf?bs=10735&b=332188&st=20&r=na&ind=personalcare

    Other similar ingredients that have perhaps the similar benefits would be the materials made from rice bran, which can include inositol or perhaps phytic acid. 

    Ok…I’ve never seen anything like that before…. So if I read this right, using this chelator, it also has incredible skin benefits like I might expect from orchid embryos and ground unicorn horn?  Why have I not heard of all these amazing skin benefits before?  Hehehe….why doesn’t every product include this?  :)

  • jemolian

    Member
    November 17, 2020 at 9:21 am

    In terms of marketing benefits of sodium phytate, see here 
    https://www.ulprospector.com/documents/1197592.pdf?bs=10735&b=332188&st=20&r=na&ind=personalcare

    Other similar ingredients that have perhaps the similar benefits would be the materials made from rice bran, which can include inositol or perhaps phytic acid. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    November 15, 2020 at 8:53 pm

    suswang8 said:

    I am trying to buy as few ingredients as possible so I don’t end up with an entire kitchen full of garbage that I do not use, but one thing that I felt I had to get in order to be an all-natural baby was sodium phytate….which of course ropes you in to getting citric acid.  I’m not happy that I will have ounces and ounces of the stuff left over as I use it in such minute amounts, but whatever.  

    What pH are you going for? I think my requirements are only that the formulation be below 6, and in my most recent test case, I did not have to add any citric acid when using sodium phytate at 0.2%.  I believe the unscientific paper strips give me a reading a 5.5 to 6.

    Because of the B3 in the formula…I am shooting for the 5.5 to 6 range.  I end up at almost 8 as my starting point.

    I use a meter.  Not sure how much I would rely on strips.  :D

    One way to look at things that are used at such low use rates, if I am promoting being 97.2% natural based ingredients….how is changing that to 97.0% really going to alter the sales or perception of the product?  Not like EDTA is toxic.

    I work under the auspices that 100% is very difficult to obtain, so I take it where I can, and leave it where I can’t.

  • suswang8

    Member
    November 15, 2020 at 7:34 pm

    I am trying to buy as few ingredients as possible so I don’t end up with an entire kitchen full of garbage that I do not use, but one thing that I felt I had to get in order to be an all-natural baby was sodium phytate….which of course ropes you in to getting citric acid.  I’m not happy that I will have ounces and ounces of the stuff left over as I use it in such minute amounts, but whatever.  

    What pH are you going for? I think my requirements are only that the formulation be below 6, and in my most recent test case, I did not have to add any citric acid when using sodium phytate at 0.2%.  I believe the unscientific paper strips give me a reading a 5.5 to 6.

  • ketchito

    Member
    November 14, 2020 at 2:28 pm

    @Graillotion The main issue with EDTA (and related) is the low biodegradability. A good compromise are similar and yet more biodegradable molecules like MGDA or GLDA. Buy yeah, sodium phytate has the lead if your communication is based on “natural”. 

  • Pattsi

    Member
    November 14, 2020 at 4:09 am

    From my limited experience in marketing - negative perception with EDTA - no or should I say not yet.
    There’s Origins with no EDTA.  Some cream from L
    ancôme, Clarins, etc. with no EDTA.
    Is there any marketing benefit of using sodium phytate? all-natural claim is a big plus if it does perform well.