[Pattsi]

I have tried these products on my 🐱, no big deal, they’re just lubricants.😎

[Pattsi]

It is a lotion with marketing spin.😀

[Pattsi]

🎂 🎉🎊😀

[Pattsi]

MarkBroussard said:

Someone will introduce a line of cosmetic products specifically for use on gentials

Thanks a bunch @MarkBroussard.

I will try to persuade my boss for vulvar brush on and foundation.

[Pattsi]

Ghita37 said:

What bothers me is that i asked the lab for the costs and they said they will give me costs once they prepare the samples for me because for each product i want.Lets say i want a face gel , so first they send me the sample as per my requirement with my formulation; if i validate then they will determine the cost which somehow makes sense i think/Imagine if they send me a sample and i want them to change a texture or add an ingredient so this will affect the cost of the product; so i believe i first determine the formulation i like and once i do that they give me the costs, is this a good way Squinny? 

It is how most of outsourcing manufacturing works I believe.
For example, if I want to make hand cream.
I have to choose
1. Which formula, weather it is stock formula or developing one. 
2. How much I want, eg 100 ml 5000 pieces = 500000 ml
3. choose packaging, … etc.  

After you approve the sample, they can work on their production cost then they will give you price quotation.

As @Squinny suggested - make sure you calculate every costs, and plan your business well.

Ghita37 said:

argan oil 40%
Baobab oil 5% 
Almond oil 2%
CCT 40% 
vitamin E 0.2% 
Sorbeth 30 10%
phenoxyethanol 2.3% 

@MarkBroussard gave you a very good formula structure, I recon you follow that. Or if you want to make this formula it’s your decision.
 

Squinny said:

@Ghita37 - I have sent a message to your inbox. Maybe in first instance contact someone like New Directions Australia (they also do International enquiries) - click on the services tab and you will see a button for international. They may give you some idea of what they do and how much it all costs and then you can compare or find a Similar Business where you are rather than just a Lab. However, I think before you go down the road of manufacturing, selling, distribution etc you make some products that you are happy to sell and this takes time. Start with 1 product and concentrate on that first. In the meantime, get yourself skilled up to run a Business with all it entails. Note that the Economy is struggling worldwide so launching a new Business will have more challenges than in a better Economic Climate. Even well-established companies in general had lower profits (some substantial and may had losses) in 2022. Cheers and good luck in 2023.

Great advice.

Ghita37 said:

Hello everyone
Is it possible to have a cleanser that doesnt rinse off?

Micellar water doesn’t need to be rinsed off.

Cheers.

[Pattsi]

Graillotion said:

Silk Lotion Maker (Bis-PEG/PPG-16/16 PEG/PPG16/16 Dimethicone) (myskinrecipes.com)

I tried it, lovely silky dry skin feel, I loved it, a little expensive, but with my limited formulating skill I couldn’t make a stable emulsion.

[Pattsi]

Dear @Ghita37

With no bad intention, please allow me a bit

Ghita37 said:

By the way @ Jemolian in regards to my brand concept or the main idea behind my brand is: take care of yourself(good start); dont neglect yourself (good)yet dont look for perfection(why can’t I).Infuse or feed your skin the ingredients it needs to attain your goals but accept aging(so which is it, can your brand help me or not).Our products are made with safe ingredients(?) and when used on a regular basis give results(what result?) over the long term(how long, 10 years?). My concept also is that we make our product with YOU THE CUSTOMER in our mind; we want you to know that we care about you and about the safety of your skin(good but too generic). We want to make your life easier.We want you to know that though our products are not rocket science(don’t put on statement that devalue your own brand, and what is wrong with old science, soap bar has been around for ages and it is still perfectly fine) i mean a cleanser or face scrub are products that are common yet we want you to know that we invest a lot of time behind every decision we make from choosing the right active ingredients to the right surfactant because want want your skin to be safe and breath(again good but too generic)

 . µ
 By the way im reading now about brand concept and i feel like it is more or less the philosophy of the brand; what does the brand stand for overall, is this correct? 

I didn’t say it is wrong or bad, it’s yours to decide. but iIf I skim read your brand concept - My understanding might be, your product is very common and somewhat won’t give me result from using it over 10 years?

From what you wrote, my understanding is you are targeting sensitive skin, what about people with normal skin, can’t they use your brand? 

Let’s see Shiseido’s: 
encouraging diversity through inclusive campaigns and offering products that are as equally grounded in nature as they are in science

Even if yu don’t understand the whole but yuo can still see the message.

Ghita37 said:

@Pattsi I watched one day a video on Youtube on what is a product market fit and they said that product market fit is found when people buy your prodiuct not when they fill in a survey or when they say they will buy through your survey; 

They also said survey are used when you already have a target audience and and want to create a new product. Not when you’re starting out and have a product you want to test.

Searching, asking question to people whether they will buy or not will never show you the real picture.  You’ll learn more by going out there (on- or offline), sharing your product with others and talking with them.
Who your target is, you’ll learn by doing.
Why they will (or will not) purchase, you’ll learn by doing.
What you need to do next, you’ll learn by doing.

Thank you for sharing.
But what about you, do you have your product ready or do you have your target ready or neither?

And as @jemolian mentioned price point is very important.

I have a little question.
From what you wrote, you mentioned 
Laroche Posay 
Cetaphil 
Cerave 
Avene 
Uriage
I don’t see any Moroccan local brand, are you competing with international brand?

your references, reviews from amazon.com, are you doing US market? only mentioned online pharmacies what about local products in local souq? Have you walked and seen around your area?

If your target is Moroccan first, you have an advantage being a local and understanding your audiences better than those brands.

Example, an answer I got, balm vs oil - I like balm because it is easier to apply and control when rub it in, oil is spreadier and it make my hair style messy. 
and then arose new question why is hair style important? and so on.. bit by bit, the more data helps me understand more.

[Pattsi]

You can make this with fraction of their $30.

[Pattsi]

Dear @Ghita37

MarkBroussard said:

@Ghita37

If I may offer you this final bit of advice:

(1)  Cleansing Oils are a proven product category.  The issue is more will a cleansing oil be attractive in your target geographic market

(2)  Follow the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid) in your product development

(3)  Cleansing Oils are designed to cleanse.  Most all ingredients you put in your formula will rinse off and won’t really have any effect other than the oils and surfactant.  Everything else simply goes down the drain

I agreed with Mark, maybe you are asking too much from cleansing oil. If there is one perfect cleansing oil fitted for all, I would love to have it too.
Take a quick look a Shu Uemura, how many formulas they have.

MarkBroussard said:

@Ghita37

(4)  You will get the most valuable information from making a batch of product and have consumer panels test it and give you feedback

Again I agreed with Mark, reading trend or searching from internet may give you a hint but there’s a big difference between internet surfing and market surveying. You can do 2 steps, 1 questionaire survey and start formulating accordingly, and then 2 test batch consumer panels, you can do 30, 50, 100.
We gave away tons of tester for information.

My little humble advice - don’t decide based on what you have read on internet or what you thought. Correct data and information, why your target don’t like to use micellar, why some don’t like cleansing oil, why some like balm and you will see what you should sell, micellar or balm or oil or both or neither.

And you should be looking into makeup remover category rather than facial cleanser. 

[Pattsi]

Survey - you can search Beauty product questionnaire in google and customize it to your use. You can practice with your friends and family first.

Depends, in some countries they might find online convenient, some countries may have to do onsite survey.

Where - where girls gathered that’s where - malls, colleges, beauty spas, road side, … etc.

If you don’t have huge $$ to hire a surveyor, you have to do it yourself, it might feel odd at first but Moroccans are really nice, I think they won’t mind answering you questions.

Ghita37 said:

5-you said cleansing oil is a semi bg bottle, isnt the capacity of a cleansing oil always 100 ml? i think its good to start small cus offering huge sizes for a brand ppl still dont know is a risk. 

You can check out your direct competitors and through survey you can incorporate some question to see what your target think will worth their money. 
Some market 100 ml - ok, Some market  100 - too small
One brand used to have both 100 and 200, then they dropped 100 version. 

USA is indeed great market but for small business you may find neighboring countries easier, you may have to do market analysis comparison and with data then you can decide which one suites your business.

MarkBroussard said:

@Ghita37

I haven’t read through all the posts since they are so long … there is elegance in brevity.

Cleansing Oils are often used as the first cleasnse in a two-part cleansing process with the first application being a cleansing oil followed by a second cleansing with a micellar water.

As Mark pointed out, many use both oil based and water based. 

I am originally from South East Asia so both English and MSA are not my native languages, pls pardon my spelling and grammar.   

[Pattsi]

Ghita37 said:

-the girl im targeting is single. why single? well single women tend to wear makeup maybe more than married women. she lives with her family, so whatever money she earns is for her and she belongs to the middle/uppwer crust of society. 

Dear @Ghita37 - This is a good starting point, you got your target. Now do you know their routine, what % is team cleansing oil, what % is team micellar water.

jemolian said:

It looks like you have your demographics down. Did you talk to or survey them to get a gauge of the products they will use? Getting to know more will help with getting to know their routine, types of product preference, budget, feedback on products used, things to note for improvements vs competitors’, etc. 

This is gold.  

@jemolian ‘s post is very on point.

Cost structure is important, cleansing oil is a semi big bottle product, if your cost is too high due to your choice of carrier oils, you won’t be left with margin.

One question - why USA, why not Saudi, Misr, Emirates or western Europe?

GEN Z - They will become 25 one day right? They may not have huge purchasing power but they can be loud on social media (if they are allowed). Their mothers would want them to grow into a beautiful bride so beauty product might worth investment for family’s money. It is cultural aspect I’m sure you understand your target better than I do.

One group you might have overlooked, girls who have to live night live. Do they have to wear makeup, do they have to take off their makeup?

My question is for you to think, you don’t have to post your business plan here or if you decide it will benefit you, you can choose to post some of it here.

[Pattsi]

Example

Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil**, Polysorbate-80**, Polysorbate-20**, Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil**, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Kernel Oil*, Citrus Grandis (Pomelo Grapefruit) Seed Oil**, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Oil**, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil**, Tocopherol, Sucralose**

1. Sunflower - could be up to 90% - it is quite cheap.

2. Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil**, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Kernel Oil*, Citrus Grandis (Pomelo Grapefruit) Seed Oil**, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Oil**, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil**
- you will never know (unless you have the master formula) how much they are actually in there - can be 0.0001 - 0.1 or maybe 1 each.

3. Argan oil is the main star here as they have other products which use argan oil as the star ingredient as well.

How will you know which oil should be your star? - As I said, knowing your targeted audiences, you will find the lead to which oil they think highly of, it doesn’t have to be squalane or marula, it can be any oil which your customer valued. 

Ghita37 said:

Also what benefits does the skin get from oils? From my numerous reading and courses i undertsood that oils mainly play the role of occlusive, they bind or seal water in the skin and this is why when our skin is damp we should use oils to preserve that water in the skin, same goes for when we apply a cream or lotion, always follow it with oil to seal the hydration and prevent water from evaporating. wHAT do you say? 

Not in the case of cleansing oil - cleansing oil was designed to strip make up and 99.99%  will go down the drains unless some cleansing oil was formulated to leave some thin film after rinse off.

Ghita37 said:

Dear @Graillotion, you said its hard to market things you dont believe in and this is why cosmetics formulators dont have their own line.So how come there are succesful brands in cosmetics, does this mean brands lie to their customers and the succeess is not in the product or the formulation but in: knowing the target audience, their pain point, crafting a compelling brand story and having a social media strategy? i always thought the success would be partly acheived thanks to a product of high standards because if someone buys a product once and doesnt like it they wont buy it twice, so a good product is partly helping achieve the success, the other part is in what i mentioned: marketing and branding, do you agree here ? 

It is the combination of both, you may have heard some influencers/youtubers
put out shitty products with super compelling stories, after first lot - failed. And the other way around very high quality product with out marketing, how will customers know your product and want to try it, got impressed and come back.

You can have 3 or 10 whatever you like, just that the main carrier oil is cheap, easily sourced, stable and have the texture your customers like, your may want to skip mineral oil tho.  

Ghita37 said:

For the story, you mean does it have to be related to how the product is used or what kind of story?

Not necessary - depends on your targeted audiences.
Some lines have their stories related to their products, some lines have their products related to their stories. 

[Pattsi]

Indeed, we spent some money in R&D to find it is a very great claim ingredient.
Pro - stable

[Pattsi]

It might comes to texture, thicker balm may stay in your eyes longer than thinner oil. We don’t have this problem with peg-20 glyceryl triisostearate. But it might be your %. I would try reduce some waxes.

[Pattsi]

15% Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate - effectiveness - not much.

[Pattsi]

Ghita37 said:

since im targeting women who wear makeup aged 30-40

I think your target is a little too vague, you might have to be more specific.
Identify your customers - like
- what states will you be selling mainly
- how big is 30-40 female population in that area
- average incomes, how much they’re willing to pay for your cleansing oil.
- competitors
- alternative products 
- which ingredient is a no no, which ingredient will be your main star in case you will put out other products.
- …
- …
- …
- …
These details may help you narrow down your choice of ingredients in your formula.

Ghita37 said:

There are multiple types of facial cleansers such  gel cleansers, micellar water, cream cleansers, cleansing balm,foam cleansers, clay cleansers.
What problems do cleansing oils solve for makeup wearers that other cleansers dont solve? 
How can i set myself apart when promoting my cleansing oil to people who wear makeup? 
Thank you all:)

This should be the first question you have to answer yourself, why did you choose cleansing oil over others?

Cleansing oil is mainly made of carrier oils, emulsifier and marketing, keep formulating until you get your Ah Ha (borrowed from @Graillotion) product. 

[Pattsi]

MarkBroussard said:

I think the “Like” button is a horrible idea.  This isn’t a social media site, it’s a site for factual information.

It is not uncommon for incorrect information to be posted on this site.  What if a number of non-chemists all “Like” a comment because they don’t know what the correct factual information is and the post is repeating incorrect information that is commonly found on mommy-blog sites.  I’ve seen many common mommie-blogger nonsense statements perpectuated here.

What would be useful is a Fact Check button where users who question a particular statement could request a Fact Check by a chemist accompanied by a Factually Correct button that the chemist could verify that the statement is Factually Correct.  More work for Perry, but it better maintains the integrity of information posted on the site.

Great point, if I were to spin a questionable ingredient, I would create 100 likes and there I have an approval(ish) from professional chemist forum.

Factually correct button would also be potentially problematic. Whose fact will be correct, and in the next years time, is that fact will still be correct. 

I would like thank you button for individuals who give reasonable answers and can be display next to their names, there’re so many I want to thank.

[Pattsi]

This might come across as offensive, before you drive deep into penetration enhancing, I recon you start with basic cosmetics formulation.

Perry offers a course here that cover most if not all the things for beginner. 

[Pattsi]

@Stanley - The use of blue might come from (just my speculation) when painters paint portraits, some will mix a tad bit of blue when paint the skin of the face area to get the colour effect they want. One that I went to his studio use purple.
Never have I ever seen a professional makeup artist using it but it might be really handy on Halloween. My humble opinion, it is too California-ish or Florida-ish, will global brands have it or they had it, I don’t know.    

[Pattsi]

Trendy, isn’t it? For customers experimental experiences, they can create their own semi-professional(ish) foundation.

[Pattsi]

If you want an accurate LOI, you have to get it from the actual label, I either buy the products if I want to test them or just snap a picture when I go shopping.

Or you can search online for something like this.

or check it on Sephora

https://www.sephora.com/product/the-ordinary-deciem-granactive-retinoid-2-emulsion-P427418
 
Or some companies might just intentionally mislabeled.  

[Pattsi]

My day has been good so far (I guess), thank you for asking, how’s yours?

Cetaphil, CeraVe, Aveeno, Sebamed, … is fine, just avoid soap-based or soap bar. One has been switching to shower oil and they say it good for them so there’s this option too if budget is no concern. 

Life style adjustment is also advised, no smoking, less alcoholic drinks, more veggies, light exercise regularly, avoid direct sun exposure, avoid stress and no scratching please.

Encourage moisturization.

Keeping track of daily life, make a note which products/foods they have been using/eating. Accurate information would be useful if they were to see dermatologist next time.

Wishing them well very soon.

[Pattsi]

Or exclude both EO and fragrance and go with hydrosol or some musky/woody water phase ingredients, problem solved.

[Pattsi]

1. Make sure the label and analysis of ingredients meet the requirement from their country’s FDA.
2. Why? Manufacturer’s information has to be shown on the products, why can’t it be shown on shipping document?

[Pattsi]

Adamnfineman said:

The idea is that a high concentration of urea would act as a keratolytic agent and soften the top layer(s) of the flareups. Then that top layer could be gently removed in the shower and the skin underneath would be moisturized by the second product.

Quite the opposite, wear loose clothes and avoid friction.  
Use soap free or very mild cleanser/shampoo or in some cases only rinse the lesions with warm water.
Moisturizer 2-4 times a day.

Adamnfineman said:

 0.05% fluocinonide cream to use if the flare ups become more severe.

Yes, continue.

Adamnfineman said:

vitalys said:

I also surmise that the current treatment plan may become too complicated, annoying and inconvenient for your patient, which can lead to nonadherence and failure of the therapy later. 

@vitalys
You hit the nail on the head here, it was a struggle at first to make sure they were adhering to the treatment plan. I will definitely take your advice and look into making just one product that can be quickly and easily applied. 

vitalys said:

Why not formulate a formula that can combine all key actives in one comfortable cream/lotion or even a spray? You may combine the following:
Urea - 10-12%
Glycerol - 7%
Petrolatum up to 10%
Ceramide combo - 3% (as you already use)
Lactic acid -2-3%
Caprilic/Capric triglycerides and/or Stearic acid - as a source of fatty acids to maintain the lipid barriers along with ceramides. 
Squalane -2-3% or Hemisqualane 
You may also consider the use of Laureth-9 or 7 -3-4%(sometimes the latter gives some more pronounced effect) as antipruritic agents. 
In order to make the final product even more efficient and prolong the activity of the active ingredients and keep the occlusive film on the skin, which will work as an artificial protective layer, it would be better to use w/o emulsion with modern w/o emulsifiers as Cithrol PGTL(combining it with Laureths you will get a liquid o/w emulsion for spray application, which will maintain the quite resistant occlusive film) or similar. 
Keep emulsion at pH 4-4.20. Use Triacetin or Triethyl Citrate (better) for Urea stability.

Thank you for taking the time to write this all out. I like the idea of a spray on product. We have everything on hand except Laureth-9/7 and Cithrol PGTL.

Though I’ve read about it in several threads here, I’ve never personally made a w/o emulsion. Do you have any tips?

Keep it simple as they will have to continue for months.

Comfortable cream/lotion or even a spray - yes, comfortable as they will have to apply it 4 times a day. spray - no experience, no comment.

Ceramides and HA or other active is optional, depends on their budget, normal 5% urea cream works well too as long as they apply it regularly.   

You may have to work on their cleanser as well.

If still no improvement, they might have to consult with board certified dermatologist who specialized in people of colour’s skin.