[Paprik]

It is a lot … that is how I would describe it.

Take it easy and reduce and/or remove some ingredients.

My guess would be hyaluronic acid. If you are using HMW, 2% is a LOT. It basically dries and turn into flakes. If you are using good grade of Xanthan Gum I would say 0.3% is not a lot. If you are using some cheap slimy snotty grade it might not be helpful.

2% Panthenol - again, too much. It might also feel sticky.

If you calculate the phases, you have around ~56% water left. Try to aim higher.

[Paprik]

@PerryT @Perry44 @OldPerry … just tagging you so you can answer 🙂

[Paprik]

Hi,

1) Acetate form is not that effective. Check this forum, you will find others talking about it.

2) As Ketchito said, you also want to protect the product from oxidation = Mixed/d-alpha tocopherol. NOT acetate. That will protect your formula and also skin.

Polysugamulse D9 is natural, even COSMOS suitable. You cannot go better than that if that what you/your customers care about.

You could also use Caprylyl/Capryl Glucoside?

If you want I can send you some slides with natural solubilisers. Send me DM.

As long as your solution stays clean/transparent, you have enough solubiliser and can add continuously.

Again, as suggested by Ketchito, try combine some and see how it goes.

Good luck.

[Paprik]

First of all, do not use Acetate form. It will not help to protect formula and will not do much on the skin either. Use normal Tocopherols - I love mixed tocopherols.

That said, how do you incorporate it? Do you pre-mix the tocopherol with solubiliser first? And add slowly into the water phase under stirring waiting the solution to become clean after each addition?

I believe there is somewhere patented formula (that lose its patent already so it can be found and used) for this kind of Vitamin C serum. Search this forum for it. This might give you an idea about the inputs.

*** I would aim for ratio 5 : 1 as Solubiliser : Vit E. Maybe even 10 : 1 depending on the solubiliser. ***

If I remember correct everyone seems to like Polysugamulse D9

Hope this helps 🙂

[Paprik]

That certainly does not look right.

I would maybe increase Polysorbate to oil ratio to 2:1 or 3:1, even up to 5:1 and see.

Also, check your method. You cannot dump all solubilised lipid into the water phase right away.

Do you have overhead mixer? If so, mix with propeller, does not need to be vigorous mixing but must be good turnaround of solution. After, in small additions, add solubilised lipid and mix until solution becomes transparent again.

You see after each addition the solution might become a bit cloudy but that should clear quickly. If not, you do not have enough solubiliser for the lipid. Each lipid needs a different ratio. However Polysorbate 20 is a very good solubiliser.

Hope this helps 🙂 Good luck!

[Paprik]

Even the Kojic acid will probably interfere .. what is the final pH? Most of the Carbomers require pH ~7.

Not sure what actives you’re using, .. they might be also electrolytes.

It also looks like it might feel sticky? 7% Glycerin is a lot. Plus 1% Panthenol.

I would re-think the whole formula.

Start with just water and XG / Siligel & humectant, add enough to get desired viscosity.

After start adding other ingredients and actives and see if that caused any instability/reducing viscosity.

[Paprik]

Well, you kind of pointed out the possible culprits … so have you tried it without them?

Knock them out and see how it performs.

You might need to reduce the dye input if it stains. Not really sure about your aloe vera source.

Plus your preservation is not great, so it might be microbial growth causing the smell.

[Paprik]

Depends, but …

Sometimes we use a little bit of low HLB emulsifier in O/W emulsion, but I wouldn’t use oil compatible rheology modifier.

So ok to use beeswax in small input, but I would not use trihydroxystearine. You want to gel the water phase so it holds oil droplets suspended.

Again, it all depends on the formula etc …

[Paprik]

I am with Matt. I heat all surfactants to dissolve them and once clear and warm/hot I add PEG 150 Disterate. Easy. 🙂

[Paprik]

Ahoooj!

Good to see another Czech in here 🙂 I have nothing else to add to Perry’s comment, just wanted to say hi 🙂 I am from Czech too, but living in NZ. Got a little excited to see you here 😀

[Paprik]

You can source pure caffeine. Myskinrecipes have some encapsulated. I source it here in NZ in normal form.

I use it at 2% around the eyes. But if I remember correctly TheOrdinary have 5% serum?

[Paprik]

Hi,

I would just try to make a simple formula first and after tried to add more anionic or other surfactants. Try it simply with one anionic, amphoteric and non-ionic and see how it goes.

And change anionic if that doesn’t work etc..

What worked for my cationic guar now was to add that into water first, lower pH to 5 ish and mix for 15 minutes. After I add all other surfactants.

You are also using Geogard ECT, I would never go above pH 5 ish with this one, despite what the supplier says. And also would add a booster.

Good luck, keep us posted 🙂

[Paprik]

I second Microformulation …

But here would be my rank and why

1. SLES - due to the ethoxylation (milder)

2. SCS and SLS

Maybe SLS would be 3. as SCS sounds better for customers.

[Paprik]

It is normal. Really depending on your waxes and lipids.

Sometimes the full viscosity is reached a few days after manufacture.

And yes, the higher temperature the more “liquid” your product will be. 45°C is considered high temperature for stability testing and will not likely to happen in real life.

[Paprik]

I am not really sure about the “reputable vendor” term.

The carrier oil should be emulsified. Not added after. You usually don’t put oils into emulsion, unless it is heat sensitive (e.g. cyclomethicone). The oil will be kind of free and might just feel heavy (if plant oil is chosen).

1% essential oil or fragrance seems crazy! First of all, you need to check regulatory limits for essential oils. If you add essential oils you need to add antioxidant. Fragrance at 1% is also high input. Depending on the fragrance, you sometimes need 0.1 - 0.2%.

Chemists/formulators work in grams, not gallons. So I would weight the product and mix it accordingly.

Some emulsions need to be mixed under low shear after/during cooldown, some can be high sheared again. Without formula/IL of the body cream we cannot tell.

[Paprik]

That looks to me like a solubiliser.

Will be a highly ethoxylated substance.

[Paprik]

Hi,

44% is not the surfactant active matter, right? It is probably using 44% solution at, let’s say, 10-15%?

It would be probably easier if you tell us what do you have on hand and if you want to replace it with sulfate or non-sulfate.
We can literally name dozens of surfactant - from sodium coco sulfate to “luxurious” ones such as isethionates or taurates.

[Paprik]

Yes, you do. But you do have a little bit - Behentrimonium Chloride. Not enough I am afraid.

Cetostearyl Alcohol helps as it probably made it real thick.

[Paprik]

Glycolic acid is never let you to thicken the Carbomer 940. Also bringing the pH to high level will neutralise the acid anyway.

You need something electrolytes resistant. I had success with Sepimax Zen. And keep the pH low so the acid can stay bioavailable.

[Paprik]

I have never worked with Polysorbate 60, but I would say for this higher load of lipids you should choose some solid waxy emulsifier (blend), even anionic, paired with a stabiliser (can be cetearyl alcohol) and also add rheology modifier (Xanthan Gum).

[Paprik]

You can also spray some alcohol over it and it will kill the foam.

[Paprik]

If you stay long enough around here, you will learn that nothing is really “broad spectrum” and it is sort of marketing term. Euxyl PE 9010 might probably work in anionic surfactant systems, but not really in emulsions.

Preservative blends, supportive ingredients (such as chelating agent, humectants [1.2 Hexanediol, Pentylene Glycol, …] and low pH will help.

[Paprik]

Why you cannot list all the ingredients? You will have to list them on the product anyway?

[Paprik]

Ok, glucosides are non-ionic .. Cocamidopropyl Betaine is amphoteric and Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate (SCI) is the only anionic on your list.

SCI is a bit harder to work with as it tends to precipitate in solution. Check this forum for some tips and tricks. I would suggest to source more water soluble form of Isethionate - Sodium Cocoyl Methyl Isethionate for example. However if it is for a shampoo, it might be toooo expensive. It is usually used in premium products or face washes as you do not need that much surfactant active level. It is very mild.

[Paprik]

Oh I see now 😀 I just skim read and once saw Deo - BANG .. Graillotion 😀