[Graillotion]

ifamuj said:

My moisturisers tend to feel greasy so I wanted to try and see if an alcohol may help to lessen that effect. Here’s an example of the kind of face cream I have formulated in the past:

Water phase:
	Water
4	Propylene glycol
1	Glycerin
3	Sodium lactate
0.2	Disodium EDTA
0.1	Hyaluronic acid
0.1	Solagum AX
0.5	Allantoin
1	Colloidal oatmeal
1	Niacinamide
1	Panthenol
1	Sorbitol
1	Betaine
0.5	Phenonip
Oil phase
4	Montanov 68 (Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Cetearyl Glucoside)
2	Cetyl alcohol
22	Sunflower oil
1	Dimethicone
0.5	Phenonip
0.1	BHT
Cool down
2	Urea
5	Centella asiatica extract
0.5	Vitamin E
0.5	pH adjustment

Please throw some insight on how I can make it feel less greasy.

You have a pretty high percentage of an oil…that is not the lightest in the world… Try decreasing the oil phase…and use some quicker absorbing oils….Rosehip, raspberry, Meadowfoam, Babassu…etc.
Mont 68, has a very rich feel, which can be translated as a little oily.  I am currently working on a cream….And use Mont 202 as the primary and 68 as a co-emulsifier, and that strikes a nice balance between light, and rich.  Mont 68 can be difficult to work with, you might consider adding some Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate, to strengthen that emulsion.

[Graillotion]

natasha3211 said:

You need to get good information for your face cream 

https://www.blendsmartreviews.com/what-is-kabuki-brush/

Did you send the link you intended?  That one was about a Kabuki brush???

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Using it at low % and in conjunction with antioxidants and a chelate greatly increases shelf life once formulated. The more stable “GLA oils” usually contain a higher % of saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids and/or high amounts of antioxidants.

Polyunsaturated fatty acids are all penetrating skin deep but do so fairly slowly and, since they are very liquid oils usually with C16-20 carbon chains, feel oily/greasy.

Be careful when reading about ‘drying’ oils. This term often refers to oils drying (=polymerising) when used as oil paint or varnish. Cosmetic bloggers and copy-pasters think that they do so on skin too. Sure, an oil with good skin resorption will ultimately feel ‘dry’ and this often coincides with drying oil paints but not always (or rather, many non-drying ones quickly feel dry on skin like macadamia nut oil).

There’s a ton of ingredients and strategies used to correct or mask undesirable effects such as an oily afterfeel.

Thank you for your enlightening comments.
I was aware, since I primarily work with the ‘dry’ oils, that they are VERY soothing to my skin.  And yes, sadly the low end of cosmetics is almost entirely a ‘cut and paste’ situation.  Whenever I research a new ingredient, I read the same description 10X!
I appreciate the fact that I can lengthen the shelf life if these more fragile oils with proper formulation.
Since with the GLA’s, I will primarily be seeking ‘claim’ value, I can keep inclusion low, and they should not alter the feel too much.

vielen Dank

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

I have polymetylilsesquioxane in one finished cream (and more under developing) mainly for spreadability.
less powdery than sepimat sb.
less matte than sepimat sb, more of a soft-focus than matte. but not shine during the day.
skin feel defers by size too 2, 4.5 , 7 , 10

So you like the feel that polymety…. adds?
The vendor I can get if from offer the 4-6 micron.
Can you describe…what you felt it added to the product?
Thank you for your feedback.

So am I understanding….that polymety…, and Sepimat sb…give about the same textural feeling, only the matte/gloss is different?

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ngarayeva001 said:

There are so many ingredients that can improve aesthetics without compromising on stability though. Various esters with different melting points and spreadability, silicone elastomers, powders like polymetylilsesquioxane, polymers.. I am sure there’s more.

Ok….you have peaked my interest with the 

Polymethylsilsesquioxane

Especially….since I can get it.    

So I know you said you had not worked with Penstia ( INCI: Adipic Acid/Neopentyl Glycol Crosspolymer), but the descriptions seem similar.  Can you or anyone compare these products?  The Penstia did not seem to give me any ‘First Touch’ oooh la lah…that I was looking for, and in fact, seemed to make the oils absorb slower into the skin, which I am not sure is what I am looking for.

So I also see that it is a bit of a film former, and water proofer….is that just a general statement that follows all silicone’s around?   Would those characteristics bring anything negative to a day cream?

All input on polymethylsilsequioxane…would be appreciated.  It does not require a special solvent….right? 

I have just a touch of soaping that I need to work out of the formula….do you think this would help?

Where would you start….as an inclusion rate?  2%?

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Hehe…. @jemolian, you know my issues…as I split sales between Korea and the US.

Early samples are on the way to Korea, arriving this week…I should have feedback soon.

My head says….make a day cream that completely absorbs, and a night cream…that takes a little longer.

[Graillotion]

ggpetrov said:

 Anyway, I have had a successful emulsions when combined Montanov 202 with an anionic emulsifier like Glyceryl Stearate Citrate.

I use GSC in another formula, where final feel is not of concern, but tough as heck emulsifying is.  For me…it brings too much of an oily feel to the finished product, even at a .5% inclusion rate.
So if you read through the thread,  Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate has seemingly provided me with the missing component to strengthen the emulsion.  
To date I have not released a product that cannot withstand 20 minutes of centrifuge.  

This formula is completely stripped of electrolytes, sans the .2% EDTA..

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ngarayeva001 said:

Btw I recently discovered sepimat sb by Seppic. Go to for mattifying. I use it in face powder but it’s used in emulsions.

Thank you.  I think I am more about not wanting shine…vs needing matte…if that makes any sense at all.  The formula as is (but not done), is in a happy place for me.  I love to learn about new products, so keep throwing them at me!

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ngarayeva001 said:

What do montanovs emulsifiers do that 165 doesn’t? Emolliency?

YES!  As far as emulsifying….nothing beats 165…we all know that.
As far as feel…. especially adding some 68 to the 202… really gives a silky glide.  The original plan…after getting most of the pieces in places….was to work on the feel, tweak the esters and add-ons…but after adding the 68… That whole process got scrapped.  It feels amazing as is.  Nothing like the 165 only or M 202 only.
Of course I have followed all your other recommendations on polymerics and carbomer, and Pharma’s cascading emollient (ester) program.  Combined with some very silky oils…Babassu, Camellia and Meadowfoam plus Rosehip and Raspberry seed oils.
And the 68 seemed to bring more emolliency that the 202… But the 202 makes for a very lite feel…and matte finish that I like.  I did not try….Just a M 68 formula…and do not intend on it.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

Have you tried 3:2 for 202:68 + 0.6% to 0.8% Aristoflex?

Just thinking how it should go at at the moment. It’s the combo i’d try.  

I tried 3 to 1 (202 to 68)…and liked that.  Still had the full silky feel that the 68 brings…but the lightness of the 202.
Yes… I use .6% Aristo or Zen (still trying to decide…but leaning towards Zen), plus a dab of carbomer.
As mentioned above…I used .25% SSG.  So not exactly sure what made the difference…I also took the temps up a little higher after reading Seppic’s formulation pages.

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I read a forum from 2016…and it suggested Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate as a co-emulsifier for Montanov 68.  Is this still the thinking?

I did make the formula again today, this time with a 3 to 1 ratio of Mont 202 and Mont 68 + .25% SSG….and it behaved as expected.  (The formula also includes a polymeric emulsifier at low rate.)

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

That sounds like some PEG-based emulsifiers which show phase inversion above a certain temperature. In theory, Montanovs do not have such a PIT (phase inversion temperature) and hence, are unresponsive to temperature changes.

However, high temperature may prevent lamellar and liquid crystalline structures from forming. PEG-100 stearate is different and hence, you’re probably used to ‘real’ emulsions meaning small oil droplets formed in water like pea in a soup. What you have now at hand is more like lasagne or puff pastry. Unlike ‘pea soup’ emulsions which get finer and more stable the harder/faster/longer you mix, that kind of emulsion requires time and forms rather spontaneously.

If it looks good at room temperature there’s a fair chance that it actually is good. Some stress tests or a few months on a shelf would tell you more.

So am I damaging my lamellar structures…by homogenizing more than I should, trying to discover at what point (temperature) it will create the final emulsion?

My roto-stator emulsifier is spending way more time in the beaker than I would like.  I stop very quickly after the emulsion finally forms.

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

As I always say if it’s for your own use and there’s no customer who wants ‘natural green and organic’ just use lotionpro 165. Aka arlacel 165. Aka GMS+peg-100 stearate. It’s a bulletproof solution.

Hehehe….so far all the products I sell…are 165 based.   
I have made this formula, also using 165, and the feeling that is created with mixing M 202 and M 68…. is mind blowing compared with 165.  

It always finally goes into emulsion….when it finds the temp it likes.  So I will try a 75% M 202 and 25% M 68, and see if I can keep the feel, and maybe it will be a little more user friendly.  M 202 has been as easy to work with as 165.  Montanov 68….Not so much!

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 When you check the pH of distilled water….what do you get?  (Just checking to make sure the tester is working. 

Alpha arbutin is 4.9 pH. 

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What form of Niacinamide are you using?  At that pH doesn’t it cause some issues? (Nicotinic acid?)

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I guess if I sold it….small pack….I’d have a monopoly.   

[Graillotion]

helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

helenhelen said:

I am! :p Out of the nearly one hundred rejected raw materials I’ve tried over six months, diglycerin has made it in. I’m not sure why it’s not more widely available.

Where are you buying this….you have peaked my interest. 

@Graillotion Haha I knew you would be interested! I’m currently using a sample of Resassol DN from Res Pharma. I haven’t found anywhere reputable it can simply be bought yet unfortunately.

Well…I couldn’t find it either….other than ULP.  I guess if I can’t buy small amounts….no point in trying something I might love!?   

[Graillotion]

I think @MarkBroussard might also give this product a thumbs up.

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It has several different uses.  As you know…I am a fan of it.

I use it in one product as part of a fragrance fixative (very low rate)…and I get EO’s to still have a strong scent after 8 hours.

I also use it in other products for TEWL enhancement at 4 or 5X the rate.  I do not use a meter, but from the day I started using it, the products started performing the way I hoped they would.

@jemolian has also started working with it, and might be able to provide some input.

I am not a chemist.

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helenhelen said:

I am! :p Out of the nearly one hundred rejected raw materials I’ve tried over six months, diglycerin has made it in. I’m not sure why it’s not more widely available.

Where are you buying this….you have peaked my interest. 

[Graillotion]

Could you list the oils you are using?

I concur, I typically sweat after a shower, but I always thought it was because of this:

I shower typically after doing physical labor, so my core temperature is elevated.  Add to that, I shower in warm water, compounding the warming of the body.

Therefore I felt that my body was just doing its job of cooling, by sweating in an attempt to lower the core temp, plus the elevated skin temp from the shower water.

I have started applying the moisturizer about 30 min after the shower, and that seems to help.  I do NOT suffer from dry skin.

[Graillotion]

 said:

Graillotion said:

Loving reading this chat!    All I know…is with a few tweaks I have eliminated the soaping, in my opinion, entirely.  Basically in a nut shell… removing all (added) stearic, adding a little cetyl (see chemical Matt’s comment….up near the top.)  And adding two slipperies at relatively high levels, the afore mentioned Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and my new favorite ingredient, Isoamyl Laurate (super spreader).  
All this…and no ‘Cones’, but every bit the feeling of ‘Cones.  The IL does the trick…at 6% inclusion! Not as cheap as ‘cones’….but with stimulus checks….who cares? :#  

That…and Pharma has been an amazing help!  Thank You!

Hey! The soaping effect has been something that’s bugged me for ages when I tried to make myself a cream. I’ve changed my emulsifier, swapped out steric acid for 2% cetyl, I’ve got Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables in the recipe (5%), and taking your suggestion here on board I’ve used Isoamyl Laurate (6%). Yet it’s still soaping!! Honestly, it’s been driving me mental how nothing seems to work. I wondered if you could share some of your percentages for this batch that seemed to work out for you. How much emulsifier do you use, or suggest to use? 

Essentially my recipe is 68% water phase, and the rest is a mix of oils, including 2% cetyl, 6% IL, 5% HOOU and 3% Caprylic/capric triglyceride. 

What was your emulsifier?

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Stacy88 said:

Graillotion said:

Well…in order to test the theory of humectants….make a small batch without the Propylene glycol, (and without the glycerin) and see if you still sweat.

Done that already and it’s still the same thing. I’m guessing it the e wax

Yes…I think the next most likely culprit.

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Has anyone else tried your product…and gotten the same result?

[Graillotion]

Well…in order to test the theory of humectants….make a small batch without the Propylene glycol, (and without the glycerin) and see if you still sweat.