Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Cetyl PEG/PPG-10/1 Dimethicone

  • Cetyl PEG/PPG-10/1 Dimethicone

    Posted by emma1985 on November 3, 2020 at 5:27 am

    Hello everyone,

    I’m trying to find some instructions on how to formulate with this w/o emulsifer. There’s very little information online, and the seller that I purchased from will not provide formulation instructions.

    My understanding is as follows:

    Usage rate: 1-3% (I wish this were more specific, as in a % percentage of phase)

    The water phase is to be added to the oil phase slowly, I’m thinking a few grams at a time, after both are heated, while simultaneously using agitation (but not shear.) Once the emulsion cools, it is to be emulsified with a homogenizer or high shear mixer. 

    Alternatively, the water phase is not heated, which speeds up the process significantly. My understanding is that the water phase can remain unheated because it gets added little by little anyway.

    I also found out that emulsions using this emulsifer lose viscosity as the oil (external) phase is increased.

    This is all I’ve been able to find, and I do not have an account on ULP, so I am hoping those of you that are much more experienced than me can help.

    Thank you so much! 

    bill_toge replied 3 years, 3 months ago 6 Members · 27 Replies
  • 27 Replies
  • jemolian

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 6:32 am

    I have saved some of the PDFs and linked via my dropbox as below. You can download it for reference: 

    Generally it’s an W/O emulsifier, somehow i find that the skin feel is slightly draggy. You won’t be able to use a water based thickener with it. 

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 6:43 am

    Thank you so much! So you mean Xanthan Gum and the like? I don’t use Xanthan Gum anyway (soapy.) Anything else incompatible? Thanks again!! 

  • jemolian

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 6:47 am

    Yup, no xanthan. I tested with Sepinov EMT 10 & Sepimax Zen. You should be able to thicken with the oil based thickeners normally, so just that the water based ones won’t be compatible. You can refer to products like the LRP Cicaplast Baume B5, or to the sample formulations in the PDFs. Remember to download in case i move it. 

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 12:43 pm

    Wow, i can’t believe I didn’t realize until now that Cicaplast used it!! I’ve been using that stuff for years. 

    Any thoughts on my suggested formulation instructions?

  • jemolian

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 12:59 pm

    What ingredients do you intend to use with it? Or perhaps you can look into duping the cicaplast. I’ve been intending to do that but it’s not my priority at the moment. 

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 1:02 pm

    I’m thinking 25% oil phase, based on the graph in the PDF.. 

    I usually use 2-3 plant oils, 1 plant butter, some Cetyl Alcohol and Cetyl Ester, esters like Lauryl Laurate, Isoamyl Laurate and Coco Caprylate. I would normally use Dimethicone 350 in the oil phase but I think it’s unneeded here.

    In the water phase I usually use Hyaluronic Acid, Propanediol, Butylene Glycol, Sodiums Lactate and PCA.

    Also antioxidants like Niacinamide, N Acetyl Glucosamine, Qmax and glycerin extracts.

  • jemolian

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 1:09 pm

    It looks fine. I think you will still need to use the salt as a stabilizer or a co-emulsifier. It won’t be stable by itself unfortunately. 

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 1:19 pm

    Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean by the salt. What else can be used as a stabilizer? Does Cetyl Alcohol function as such with this emulsifer?

  • jemolian

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 1:37 pm

    Sodium chloride or other salts should stabilize it if you intend not to use a co-emulsifier. They should have the salts included in some of the sample formulas. 

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 1:38 pm

    Sorry for all the questions, i really want to use a co-emulsifer but I’m not sure which are compatible. All of the other emulsifers I own are o/w.  I’m assuming those would not work. Does Cetyl Alcohol work as a stabilizer?

  • jemolian

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 1:42 pm

    Unfortunately I’ve not looked too much into the co-emsulsifiers yet to give you an accurate answer.

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 1:48 pm

    Okay, doesn’t appear that Sodium chloride is readily available from my usual sellers. It’s just so frustrating because there is almost no information about this emulsifer. I suppose I’ll try with Cetyl and see what happens. I think the Cicaplast uses Stearic Acid. 

    Intuitively to me it follows that an o/w emulsifer would not be compatible, which is unfortunate because I’ve got a ton of those. 

  • jemolian

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 1:51 pm

    I believe they actually used the suggested co-emulsifier stated on the PDF. I couldn’t find it. So didn’t continue with it further at that time.

  • pharma

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 5:58 pm
    BTW if you use above 74% (by volume) of inner phase, you’ll get a so called high internal phase emulsion (HIPE) wherein the inner phase (water droplets) become less round and distorted. Adding even more of the inner phase increases droplet deformation and hence increases viscosity. That’s where the ‘more oil = lower viscosity’ comes from.
    Apart from common table salt, magnesium sulphate is commonly used in w/o emulsions. It is a near requirement for stability. The reason behind it has to do with salting out effects and surface charge neutralisation leading to a higher o/w distribution coefficient (the emulsifier becomes more lipophilic or, if you’re a devotee of HLB, HLB gets lower which is said to push an emulsion more to the w/o side and away from o/w). Every formulation and every emulsifier has an optimum salt concentration and every ionic solute counts though usually a lot less than NaCl and MgSO4.
    Apart from that, you can get inspirations from other similar emulsifiers such as Isolan GPS.
  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 6:47 pm

    Is it Abil EM90? Check Evonik’s website for information. If yes, it only works with very low oil phase. It also needs another emulsifier, btw isolan gps is a good idea for pairing. 

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 6:47 pm

    Very low oil phase is 16-20%

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 8:47 pm

    Thanks everyone, unfortunately I can’t get Isolan, but I found another w/o emulsifer - Polyglyceryl Oleate that is readily accessible. Can I use this as a co-emulsifer? I really would love to use this as a co-emulsifer.

    I’m also going to be using Sodiums Lactate and PCA, would these help with stability at all?

    Sorry for the silly questions.

    I was planning on using 25% oil phase as that gives the best balance of viscosity and stability based on the chart provided in the manufacturer description. 

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 8:49 pm

    Sorry, i should have said best balance between stability and viscosity/oil phase concentration that I desire. 

  • pharma

    Member
    November 3, 2020 at 9:25 pm
    I’ve tried polyglyceryl-3 oleate as co-emulsifier with Isolan GPS. It’s refattening… that’s all I can say from my little trial. Stability wise… not sure. The advantage of combining the two is that one is a ‘fast’ low molecular weight emulsifier (easier to emulsify) and the other a ‘slow’ high molecular weight one (higher long term stability). Working with the two is somewhat challenging because they have different optimal salt concentrations, different requirements for oil phase viscosity, and so on. Only using sodium lactate and PCA didn’t do the trick. Cetyl alcohol and cetyl ester form lamellar networks; these contradict the action of such w/o emulsifiers and may not work well. I had separation after several hours to days… just the time it usually takes for these to diffuse into the water phase and form lamellar networks. Not sure how well your silicone emulsifier will take these additives.
    Bottom line is: Your silicone emulsifier is a polymeric one and hence, a combo with low MW P3O seems reasonable though you will have to play a bit with the other ingredients. Apart from that, Evonik has nice base formulations which are great starting points and nice inspirations such as THESE.
  • emma1985

    Member
    November 6, 2020 at 12:31 am

    Okay friends, I ended up finding Isolan due to a dear friend, now how on earth do I use it?

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 6, 2020 at 1:45 am

    Is it Abil EM90? Check Evonik’s website for information. If yes, it only works with very low oil phase. It also needs another emulsifier, btw isolan gps is a good idea for pairing. 

    Okay I obtained Isolan, now how do I use it and at what concentration? I’m formulating with 25% oil phase and 2.5% Cetyl PEG PPG-10 1 Dimethicone (Abil EM90.) How do I use Isolan as a co-emulsifer?

  • graillotion

    Member
    November 6, 2020 at 3:49 am

    Following….

    Just curious….why when Evonik is offering formulas with these two emulsifiers…I believe every one of them has a pinch of Hydrogenated Castor Oil?

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 6, 2020 at 5:19 am

    I noticed that too. 

  • pharma

    Member
    November 6, 2020 at 5:59 am

    You can switch that for (and the wax) any hydrogenated oil or high melting point wax or whatever. All you need is a gelled oil phase or the emulsion breaks.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    November 6, 2020 at 8:07 am

    I highly recommend reducing oil phase to 17-18% if you want to avoid adding high melting point wax. Look at Evonik’s formulas, the only one with high oil phase has like 3% of high melting point waxes. That kills the texture completely (although it’s obviously makes it more stable). 1.5-2% Abil EM90, 0.5-0.75% Isolan GPS, 1-1.5% of either NaCl, or Mg Sulfate or Zn Sulfate (a must! for stability). If you use sodium lactate of Sodium PCA reduce salt to 1% but don’t remove it. Now, if it’s a cold process and you want a lighter gel like texture use Zn Stearate at 0.5-0.7% and something like hydrated silica or silica dimethyl silylate (sold in Italy and Greece) and keep Dimethicone at less than 20%. If its a hot process you can up oils but follow what Evonik suggested in the formula with 40% of oils where they added tons of waxes. It’s going to have long rheology and will be runny. You can try both options and see which you like best. And which one is more stable. W/Si are tricky beasts.

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