[Graillotion]

It would be helpful to know…if this was a product from a big company (who should know what they are doing). Or a small pretender brand.

In helping entry level people…I have found time after time…that they have destroyed their polymeric…but have no idea….cus they did not know how to evaluate/test that. It was just an ingredient, and they heard it was good, or saw a benchmark brand using it.

Since there are other gelling aspects in the formula….it could be conceivable that their AVC…is doing nothing…and they just adjust the HA quantity and molecular weight to get the desired viscosity.

I see it all the time in deo formulations…where beginner brands look around at what the big dawgs are doing….and see an ingredient that is used frequently, and they’ll add it to their product, even though the ingredient requires a low pH platform, and their platform is high pH. They simply are INCI cherry picking without having the knowledge to apply it.

• This reply was modified 12 hours, 13 minutes ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 12 hours, 11 minutes ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Based on the “who’s who” list of fake claim ingredients…I can speculate on the skill set of the formulator. 😂

• This reply was modified 12 hours, 6 minutes ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Just for bonus points….my mentor wrote such an elaborate expose on elderberry…. I thought it was a shame…for me to be the only person in the world to read it. Enjoy for extra-credit points. We were discussing the use of elderberry amongst the beginner crowd….

“The toxin is related to the toxin in bitter almonds, is also found in
apple seeds (which I often eat… don’t waste food, save the planet
LoL), and the content in ripe berries is low (highest but still low
within the seeds which are often not crushed when eating berries). Once
eaten or crushed, those foods liberate prussic acid. Well dried or
cooked, the toxin (= prussic acid precursors and activating enzymes)
partially degrade and any free prussic acid easily evaporates upon
cooking. The human metabolism is quite effective at detoxifying cyanides
(the salts of prussic acid) and hence, as a non-sensitive adult, you may
eat hundreds of ripe berries without getting in serious trouble. Why
some people still get nausea and diarrhea is not known. The whole rest
of the plant contains way higher amounts of those cyanogenic glycosides
(and possibly other not so harmless stuff as well) and you may get a
serious intoxication from consuming leaves or bark.
As the name ‘cyanogenic glycosides’ implies, these are sugar derivatives
which are water soluble but don’t dissolve in oil. Judging from
structure, I would assume that alcohol solubility is also very good.
To activate the magic blend, crushing works best in fresh form, when the
glycosidase, hydrolase, and lyase enzymes (the ones which turn the
harmless stuff into a deadly gas) are fully active and water is present.
How well drying and then crushing works, IDK. However, these enzymes are
very effective and ingesting small quantities suffices to degrade the
precursors and turn even dried plant matter into poisonous food. If you
were to eat purified cyanogenic glycosides, they are totally safe
because they don’t degrade to cyanide in our body, they aren’t even
metabolized and pissed out as is. You might have come across the
(wrongly) hyped vitamin B17 aka amygdalin, the toxin in bitter almonds
and apricot kernels; it’s said to cure cancer amongst other miracles.
Amygdalin is approved as magistral prescription in some EU countries if
highly purified or synthetic (hence, no enzymes are present).
So, using dried ripe elderberries for cosmetic concoctions seems to be safe.
BTW Bitter almond flavor in gastronomy and perfumery is usually derived
from cheaper apricot kernels and cherry laurel kernels, respectively.
These contain many thousand times higher amounts of amygdalin and all
have that typical bitter almond flavor of prussic acid and benzaldehyde
(don’t ask me why both have a similar flavor but are totally different
chemicals… maybe one usually occurs in nature only when the other is
present as well?). Try some dried elderberries, they barely, if ever,
taste of bitter almonds and even if they do, we can sense very faint
amounts far from any toxic level.”

[Graillotion]

Maybe I am not understanding your presentation correctly….but I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is…..they were selling a very diluted product to you. Am I missing something? If this is the case….dilution and pH are your answer.

The elephant in the room is of course, the anthocyanes are directly color coordinated with pH. So everything that contributes to pH…also contributes to final color. Let me give you a little direct quote from my brilliant mentor: (his comments were directed to my question on the topic…not yours)

“The anthocyanes in the elderberry extract are not super stable (slightly acidic is best) and will change colour depending on pH 😉 . Somewhere around pH 5 (depends on the type of anthocyane), many of them become colourless, at lower pH they turn red and at slightly higher purple (around neutral pH they turn blue and in alkaline solutions green to finally yellow). There isn’t much you could do to slow down degradation except keeping pH low… from a chemical point of view in the red-coloured range but that’s going to be an acid peel rather than a soothing eye cream… which colour it will have at your target pH IDK… with bad mojo it’s the colourless zone… fingers crossed!”

[Graillotion]

Polar vs. Nonpolar Oils | Cosmetics & Toiletries (cosmeticsandtoiletries.com)

cosmeticsandtoiletries.com

Polar vs. Nonpolar Oils

Tony O’Lenick asks industry expert Valerio Vergani of AKOTT Italia to describe the difference between a polar and a nonpolar oil...

[Graillotion]

A lot of time….emollients serve multiple roles. As an example, many emollients are also solvents, so they are selected based on the balance of the formula, and what needs to be accomplished. The also vary widely in polarity…and this can also influence your selection….

It took me a long time to become friends with C-12-15 AB….but finally it has secured a spot in my top 5. 😉

Multitasking Emollients - Prospector Knowledge Center (ulprospector.com)

• This reply was modified 3 days, 12 hours ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 3 days, 12 hours ago by  Graillotion.

ulprospector.com

Multitasking Emollients

Multitasking emollients are ingredients that can both improve skin feel and provide other significant benefits. They can be used in formulations to thicken, pro

[Graillotion]

You could not have picked a word….that has a broader meaning in cosmetics. 😉

They are so diverse….and really you have to pick them based on what you are trying to accomplish….or as Perry might suggest…which is lowest cost. 😀

Some are occlusive…some are not. Some leave a shine, some do not. Some are volatile, most are not. Some feel a little oily, and others are dry as a popcorn fart. You could list these comparisons…on and on.

Probably I would use UL Prospector, and find a big ester seller…and they will often provide wide ranging charts with spreadability ratings. This for me…is a logical place to start. Albeit…. I did it the old fashioned way…and bought or got samples….of hundreds of them. 😅

Another concept to grasp is one called ‘cascading emollience’. I like to say….you can create something that is greater than the sum of the parts…if you implement this concept. If you work it just right….things can feel like they are absorbing much faster than they actually are, because they are all absorbing at different rates.

So, your natural oils/butters…are at the far end of the spectrum, and you build to them with the lighter and mid range ingredients….to create that cascade.

If you go into the knowledge center of ULP….and enter in the search bar…variations of ’emollients’, you will get a number of hits. I’ll enclose one, to get you started. Good Luck.

NOTE: The emollient game…is almost entirely subjective….

The Art of Sensoriality: Ingredients that Transform Everyday Routines (ulprospector.com)

ulprospector.com

The Art of Sensoriality in Beauty & Personal Care: Ingredients that Transform Everyday Routines

In the expansive realm of beauty and personal care, the notion of sensoriality stands as a crucial element, transcending the conventional boundaries of utility.

[Graillotion]

Swapped the VariSoft EQ 65 with SPDMA….and cursory observations are looking good. Need to stress it a bit….and see what it looks like.

[Graillotion]

It is probably noteworthy….and somewhat my hunch…. that there are NO water gelling ingredients, since all I had on hand were anionic. So, in process of acquiring Polyquaternium-37 (looking at you @chemicalmatt ) and HEC. However, both products are thick creams.

• This reply was modified 6 days, 22 hours ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

And yes…I have removed all anionic antagonist, X-gum etc…and using a low charge count chelate at a very low rate.

• This reply was modified 6 days, 23 hours ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

The reason people are asking for temps…. the behenyl alcohol in your formula will not melt…until just about 85C…hence the mfg recommendation to heat to this mark.

Cut the butters to a combined total of 1%.

You don’t need fatty alcohol and stearic in the same formula. They are both thickeners…and generally the fatty alcohols are more elegant.

With M 202 you should add a water gelling aspect…and a co-emulsifier. Typically an anionic one is used, but cationic will also work…as long as you craft the formula to handle it.

Add dimethicone to the formula…it will reduce the soaping.

You have no esters…consider adding them…so it feels nice.

Good Luck

[Graillotion]

THD is mentioned twice….in this video:

94 - Ask the Formulator - Valerie George, Marissa Plecia on Vimeo

[Graillotion]

I am not an expert…but I’d guess it contains a formaldehyde/releasing agent. It is frowned upon to aerosolize that ingredient….as inhalation is its concern.

Just a guess though.

[Graillotion]

Here is the products real names…and suppliers/mfg’s.

[Graillotion]

Yes….

In the pursuit of trying to create/find a humectant that can be used in anhydrous products…. the industry has gotten creative.

😅

Hyaluronic Acid, Oleo-HA | Lotioncrafter

lotioncrafter.com

Hyaluronic Acid, Oleo-HA

CAS No. Mixture Oleo-HA is an oil-dispersed Sodium Hyaluronate specifically designed for the color cosmetic industry. Oleo-HA allows for the use of usually water-soluble Hyaluronic Acid in color cosmetic products, which are mainly based on oily ingredients. Oleo-HA provides excellent moisturizing, lip-plumping, and rep

[Graillotion]

Well…. I am almost as far away…. 😂

Just curious on an unrelated note… Did you stop formulating…or did you find your perfect ingredients, and you are now working almost exclusively out of that pool?

I am in the latter category…however I find…every time I give something away…. I find reason to wish I could re-test it in a new format. 🤣

Aloha 🌴 and good luck.

[Graillotion]

I made the formula yesterday….swapping the VS EQ 65 with SPDMA, and had excellent results…without a gelling agent.

Let me toss a little stress at it…and see where I end up. 😉

[Graillotion]

I have never worked with a formula with this much fat….so even with the details, I would have to preclude myself from commenting….as this would be way out of the spectrum of what I have worked with. At that point it would be entirely theoretical for me.

[Graillotion]

Oh NO!!!!!!! E acetate is NOT an oil antioxidant, only the MT-E version will work in that regard. In chemistry the fine details are important. So good news is…you have not been damaging your oils. Bad news is…. neither have you been protecting them. 🙂 If you can’t find the proper form, ROE is a nice drop-in replacement.

Not sure of what your source of information has been in the past…but consider an upgrade.

Neither I, nor anyone can comment on co-emulsifier inclusion rates, when you have not even selected your primary emulsifier yet.

I’m not sure GO is an ideal choice for an already over-fatted formula. And yes…. GO needs to be paired with something.

• This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

SSG = Sodium stearoyl glutamate

At low rates, MT-E is an antioxidant. As the rate increases, it become the opposite… pro-oxidant.

Never let those with an agenda and a low IQ dictate your formula. Make safe material…or find another hobby.

[Graillotion]

You have more than one concern here!

As far as SS….you are correct…it will build very little viscosity. It is however, not a robust emulsifier. Needs a good co-emulsifier.

For your ethos….you can look at GSC (not the same as GMS). SSG…I think that would fit your ethos. Even glyceryl oleate might work in conjunction with a fatty alcohol…and is quite the refatting agent…albeit you already have too much fat.

You need more builders than just gum. Where are your fatty alcohols?… You need to consider cetyl, cetearyl, or behenyl.

You are also missing very basic beginner aspects like …. a chelate. With your ultra sub par preservative…you need to be helping it…not challenging it. GLDA should fit your ethos.

You have selected a partial preservative that is going to hardly function above a pH of 5.5, and yet you have not listed an acid???

Even with proper pH and chelate…you still gonna miss your gram negatives. Consider dropping the whole GeoGard brand. This looks like a formula botanica / Bumble Bee type mess.

Cut the vit E by 80%….it is likely doing more harm than good to your oils at that level.

For bonus points….consider dropping your oils to 10% overall, especially cutting the shea! Apply your oils to your skin….just by themselves….what ever absorbs well…focus on that. In oils….less is more….is KING. Also consider in the oil reduction…removing all the squalane…. hydrocarbons (in my opinion) bring far more grief than value.

And of course….adding an ester….will help considerably.

Good luck.

[Graillotion]

Seems like the only place I can get small MOQ on PQ-37 is out of Thailand.

I was hoping for some electrolyte tolerance….and possibly this is a concern with PQ-37?

What do you think of any of the 3rd banana option below? Who would you pick….haptics / electrolyte tolerance / enhanced emulsion stability …. this is what I can get small MOQ.

Solagum Tara

HEC

HP Starch (Hydroxypropyl starch phosphate)

Guar cat?

@chemicalmatt

[Graillotion]

It is actually an emulsified deo. Since the pH is in the 3’s…. I was having issues with run of the mill emulsifiers. So, after lots of research, I went with a Montanov type….and 1% of active cationic….and found the perfect balance.

However…I am trying to parley this into a face cream as well. I got some leakage when I went to the more intense face cream formula….so want to add a water gelling agent…and see if this fixes issues. The deo had a kiss of Monolauren….and maybe that kiss of low HLB….is the missing link….to prevent my issue.

[Graillotion]

You understand with the lack of information you have given…it is like asking us to guess what color your shirt is.

Only formula bones can help.

You are already at 31% emulsifier to oil phase….typically this should be beyond enough….however…you did not let us know what emulsifier/s…. So, I guess I’ll guess? Nope. 😂

If you are using legitimate and compatible emulsifiers….and are having stability issue…. I think your problems are elsewhere.

Always remember…. process can be as important as ingredients.

[Graillotion]

Umh… GMS will be profoundly different….than GMS + PEG100 ! 😉