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Squinny said:

Grapefruit22 you are a legend! I looked at myrecipes.com.shop as per your link and wow found so many ingredients I havent been able to source in small quantites like this place. So have just made an order and waiting for shipping costs and even with those will be much cheaper than me buying this stuff in my own country. Brilliant thanks heaps for sharing.

I learned the hard way….when trying to order from them.  If you order 1 gram…or 500…the shipping fee is the SAME!  So when you place your order…get as CLOSE to 500 grams of product as possible.  This will be the most efficient way to spread the shipping cost over all goods.

It will stair-step up from there….so you have to ask for their shipping grid…if you are North of 500 grams.

Aloha.

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MarkBroussard   Cetearyl Alcohol also comes in different % of Cetyl:Stearyl ratio … you can get 25:75, 50:50, 75:25

I have always known this…but also don’t use the stuff.

But in my ever-present quest of knowledge…I would like to hear you elaborate on why one would want a specific ratio….mainly in a context of haptics.  What do you get when you go high stearyl alcohol…that would be different than say the high cetyl version?

Thank you…I’ll sit back and listen.

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Squinny said:

Hi Mark - Just looked and my Supplier (repacker) and it doesnt say the ratio for the Cetyl/Stearic %’s in their Cetearyl Alcohol - What ratio you listed above makes for a thicker product? (Mine does make lovely thick cream when I use around 2.8% ( I do one with OliveM 1000 at 4.8% and Cetearyl Alc at 2.8% and it is a lovely thickness and skin feel for me) - But open to suggestions on what would make it better. Cheers again

Usually…somewhere in the fine print or attached documents you can find the ratio.  If not… message the seller, and they will let you know.  Always important to know….if you ever have to use a different seller…you might end up with an unexpected difference in your formula.  

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chemicalmatt said:

@vitalys thanks for all these links. You are a generous soul and tribute to the science of personal care.

You hit the nail on the head.  Vitaly is an asset to this community, and the world.

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When I formulate, I am ever thinking of the final inci… If it is something I want to brag about…probably gonna be at 1.01%.  Something I am wanting to hide…then gonna be at .99%.

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Yes, as Anca said…those brand names don’t mean much to most people.  As an example, you said…. Geogard…which is an umbrella name for a line of preservatives.  It could be any of 6…we haven’t a clue.  

You said…. Citric acid…but then did not give the important information….of the pH you dropped it to. 

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Anca_Formulator said:

@Graillotion Interesting point about protecting IP. What kind of valuable IP might be under 1% ?

Ummmh….most of it.  Generally, a lot of cosmetic products, you only have 4-6 ingredients above the line….your water, glycerin, emulsifier, rheology modifier, etc…none of which are going to be much of your IP.

It is kinda like making breakfast cereal….no one wants sugar as the number 1 ingredient, so they will use 3 different sweeteners, so they can have whole grain whole oats as the first ingredient.

In formulation… lets say you need 2% of a fatty alcohol to make the viscosity you want….if you don’t want to lead with ‘fatty alcohols’….you simply use two different ones at 1% or .99% then you can sprinkle them throughout the inci…. very basic smoke and mirrors.

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As I am not selling ingredients…I want the legitimate results.  I often smile when I see the vehicles created by those selling an ingredient…like adding glycerol to the vehicle of a product that is supposed to moisturize.

I have too many active/claim ingredients…so I need to thin the field. 

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So, it sounds like you concur, that it is a good tool for protecting IP?

Personally…I love it.

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I assume it was allowed, for a minute semblance of protecting intellectual property.  Granted, that would not slow most of us down from duping, but at least it allows the ‘higher ups’ (without formulating skills) the ability to sleep at night, thinking their secret formula is safe and sound.  

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MattTheChemist said:

@Graillotion I have the AVC and am ready to experiment next week! One question I have is about pH adjusting when using AVC. I have seen other electrolyte-sensitive polymers mention pH adjusting can negatively affect viscosity. How are you pH adjusting, if needed, when using AVC? 

I adjust early….in the water phase before combination of phases.  Just my method, nothing special about it.  I use lactic acid.  Since I add AVC to the oil phase, and adjust pH in the water phase, I am unable to know how it is impacting viscosity.  So, like any evaluation of viscosity…I evaluate the end product.  If the end product does not have what you want…you put it in your notes…and adjust on the next iteration.
Aloha.

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grapefruit22 said:

Thanks @MarkBroussard @Graillotion
@Graillotion Yes, I’ve always done it this way too, but for larger amount, I guess it could be problematic…

I made three samples. In the first sample, I still don’t know what exactly I did wrong, after I couldn’t see the “balls” anymore, I kept mixing for 5 minutes (probably too short). After half an hour, the pH increased by 0.1. I checked later in the morning and there was a total increase in pH of 0.7 Then I did two more samples, after that the solution looked uniform, I continued to mix for 20-30 minutes and there is no increase after 24 hours. So I guess it worked 

But I have a second problem. If I add Euxyl pe 9010 after dissolving the hyaluronic acid, the solution is cloudy, whitish. It is not very visible, but it is definitely not transparent, and it should be. I managed to get a transparent solution by mixing Euxyl with propanediol, then I added water, and finally hyaluronic acid. But if I do it in reverse order and add euxyl at the end it remains cloudy even after long stirring. I even tried to heat the solution but it doesn’t help at all. Why is this happening?

I used to formulate with Optiphen, so when I switched, I had some leftover.  This became my preservative to use up for the HA solution.  It is crystal clear….or at least it is…the next day.  Which is the only time I evaluate it.

Aloha  and good luck.

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Very funny…where my research is taking me…. I have concluded…that dark circles under the eye….are simply… mini-hemorrhoids of the eye area. 

So, I am seeing where the initial comment on Preparation H fits.

A number of the ingredients I have stumbled upon (and recommended via PM) have a correlation with natural hemorrhoid applications.  I came across a hemorrhoid product called ‘Emospid’, which is an uncanny dupe of where my research (and short list) has taken me.

I just find it amusing.  I don’t suppose hemorrhoid cream for the eyes…has much of a ‘marketing’ ring to it?  

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Microformulation said:

https://www.ulprospector.com/documents/1563772.pdf?bs=604&b=195989&st=1&sl=140770822&crit=a2V5d29yZDpbQWVzY3VsdXMgaGlwcG9jYXN0YW51bSBFeHRyYWN0XQ%3d%3d&k=Aesculus|hippocastanum|Extract&r=na&ind=personalcare

Here is some more info. I do think I would be cautiously pragmatic when it comes to efficacy.

Thank you, good read. 

I might have trouble hitting the rates they were using, as I will be incorporating a powder that contains only 20% aescins.  However, I am not expecting it to do all the heavy lifting….the team and I…have several ideas that we hope will build a synergy.

Aloha.

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Improbable the linked product has the value you are looking for, as it only contains water soluble ingredients (per their information).  And it is a ‘cosmetic’ ingredient.

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I always pre-make my HA, and store the slurry in the refridgerator.  Hence, never waiting, never wondering.

When you do this…you have to add a preservative to the mix at this point.

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Paprik said:

@Graillotion, let me know if you’ll find any small repacker (I know it is not close from Hawaii to NZ, but .. can try to communicate with them).

I would love to try something like this toooo .. My eyes get puffy a lot *cringe*  

My expert says…this is not really very soluble…and will just be in suspension (which is ok).

Horse Chestnut Extract (Aesculus hippocastanum) Powder — BulkSupplements.com

Contains 20%.

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Cdsgames said:

There is an ingredient called Escin or Aescin . check the research on it.

Thank You…already had it on order….hehehe.  (Pharma already had me chasing horse chestnuts. )

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Pattsi said:

Coffee extract or caffeine is good for claim but might be too common.

In my humble experience, greatest sale eye cream is the one with blur effect + super long lists LOI.

I am expert par excellence, when it comes to super long LOI’s.  I think I might just nail this.   

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Pharma said:

@Graillotion Do you have loa loa?

Well….I was born in Africa, but have not been back in 53 years….so thinking I don’t.

But if I make an eye cream with that…it will sure be a good preventative…right?  

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Bill_Toge said:

hexylresorcinol is a good material for reducing dark circles under the eyes - you only need 0.5-1.0% for it to be functional

Does it get rid of worms…as a secondary benefit?  ::smile:

How is the smell?

Can it be sourced…small scale?  (Are you using Synovea® HR?)

So far, I have Preparation H and a wormer…. Hehehe…that sounds like a challenge to put a good marketing spin on that.  

***  Does the consumer expect an eye cream…to have lightening properties? ***

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Second question.  If one reads the full article, one discovers that emulsifiers containing cetearyl glucosides greatly increased the challenge of preservation.  Aka Montanov 68 and the likes.

Question… Several of the other Montanov’s also contain various glucosides, starting with different names like Arachidyl Glucoside or C12-20 Alkyl Glucoside.  Will all glucosides have this same detrimental performance….or is that something unique to ‘cetearyl’ glucoside?

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To me, the theory is all wrong… you don’t try and ‘cover up’ irritants with soothers…. You remove the irritant.  Take your suspects and apply them neat…for as many days as it takes to develop irritation.  Then once you have found the irritant, replace it with something that does not.

I use ‘soothers’ all the time…but NOT to counteract irritants.  In my simple mind, that is a little counterintuitive.  

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Would you consider translating this into formulating language?  More people will look at it then.

That would be…grams…and percentages.

Aloha.

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esthetician922 said:

 How can I legally hide some of the ingredients? 

You are aware of the 1% rule?  Where you can jumble the ingredients that are used below 1%.  This is about the only way to make life a little more difficult for copy-cats.

But any good formulator…should be able to knock off your formula…in say…an afternoon.    

You’ll find….it is all about the marketing…and not nearly as much about your formula as you think….Sorry.