Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Aristoflex AVC and electrolytes

  • Aristoflex AVC and electrolytes

    Posted by MattTheChemist on June 28, 2022 at 7:15 pm

    Hello,

    I am really interested in trying out Aristoflex AVC in an o/w emulsion cream project, based on the reports from others in this group. It sounds amazing from a sensory perspective. My question is about its intolerance to electrolytes. Is it a large number of electrolytes that pose an issue? Can it tolerate a small amount?

    I have ProDew600 (INCI: Betaine, Sodium PCA, Sodium Lactate, PCA, Serine, Alanine, Glycine, Glutamic Acid, Lysine HCL, Threonine, Arginine, Proline, Water) in the formula at 2%. Would this be incompatible with AVC?

    If so, are there any other polymerics that are CLOSE to the AVC haptics but can handle electrolytes?

    @Graillotion I know you love this stuff. Any insights?

    Thank you!

    MattTheChemist replied 1 year, 12 months ago 3 Members · 10 Replies
  • 10 Replies
  • Graillotion

    Member
    June 28, 2022 at 9:19 pm

    Easy one to answer:

    Imagine a formula….create a water phase with correct ratios…making sure to include all possible antagonist.  Then mix in your Aristoflex AVC…and you will pretty much instantly….(not more than a minute)…see if they are getting along.  (No need to make the oil phase…or the emulsion…just see what happens in the water phase.)

    Maybe make just a batch of water and Aristoflex…in correct formula ratios…so you have something to compare against (viscosity and texture).

    Luckily Pharma taught me that…the disagreement will show itself instantly….vs something that manifests itself 6 months down the road.

    And let me tell you….if they disagree….you have nothing! (No guessing)  This is why you do NOT make the full emulsion…as it might hide the fact the AVC is not functioning. 

    (Anything with the word ‘sodium’ in the name (item 2 & 3)…is probably gonna give it grief, unless using very small amounts.)  I can pretty well assure you…….AVC will probably not work in the formula as listed.   Zen might handle that…but you could try the same test parameters.

    I think among the commonly used polymerics…Zen has some of the better tolerances.  It does git a bit gross above .5%, so you can use it at .4-.45% and add some Solagum AX at .25% and get a nice result.

  • MattTheChemist

    Member
    June 28, 2022 at 10:00 pm

    @Graillotion Thank you! I might just convince the client to remove the electrolyte offender from the formula (not doing much of anything)

    Batch a sample with AVC (no electrolyte) and without the AVC (with electrolyte and different polymer). I am definitely trying to chase that gorgeous texture/skin feel AVC promises. 

    If I use AVC, what is the best companion to it? I see you like carbomers? I have Sodium Carbomer on hand. I have the emollient cascade down, now I want to get the polymers perfected. 

    I’ll try Zen as well. I have a sclerotium/xanthan blend on hand (ActigumVSX20), but do you think Solagum AX is best with Zen?

  • Graillotion

    Member
    June 28, 2022 at 11:42 pm

    Texture…will always be subjective.  What I like best…won’t always be what you or your client likes best.

    Here is what I do…. Take just water, and the polymerics you have on hand…and make blends…both with other polymerics…and as polymeric plus carbomer blends….and sample those gels on your skin (neat).  You will have a favorite.  Don’t be surprised to find 5, 6 or 7 little bowls of gel in front of you….when the trial starts. :) 

    As far as Aristo and Carbomer…yes, I and others believe there is a (textural) synergy there.  Try 3, 4 and 5 parts Aristo with 1 part carbomer.  I use a pre-neutralized carbomer…so these experiments can be created is a matter of a couple of minutes.

    Regarding the gums on hand…as long as you keep inclusion rates low….as Perry likes to say….no one (other than me) is gonna notice.  :D 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    June 28, 2022 at 11:49 pm

    If the ProDew…is your only humecant…at 2%…right…not doing much.  I use betaine at that rate 2-3% plus a host of moisture attracting friends…many of which are also at 2%.  Depending what I am making…my humectants are 6%+  and quite a bit higher…depending how you count your glycols.  Pretty much a given…I’ll have 2% of the following… propanediol, glycerol, pentylene glycol and of course the aforementioned betaine.  Even the Proline, I use at 1%.

  • jemolian

    Member
    June 29, 2022 at 12:45 am

    You can just try a gum + carbomer that is slightly electrolyte tolerant. If the ingredient blend is still being insisted, then gum + sepimax zen. 

    Alternatively, combining other amino blends + betaine, without the electrolytes would be a good choice. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    June 29, 2022 at 2:37 am

    MattTheChemist I have a sclerotium/xanthan blend on hand (ActigumVSX20), but do you think Solagum AX is best with Zen?

    Well…much like the polymerics…I also did the water and gum only combos….and that is the one that I chose.  As you can guess…Pharma always takes me to the molecular level…and he feels that the Acacia does what gums do…at an elevated level… (not talking about haptics, but strengthening the emulsion).  I did not have every cosmetic gum…but a fair jag of them to look at.  I always have to evaluate…what I can actually acquire should something make it to the final formula.

  • MattTheChemist

    Member
    June 29, 2022 at 6:00 pm

    @Graillotion @jemolian Looks like I have some experimenting to do. Thank you both!

  • MattTheChemist

    Member
    July 16, 2022 at 5:16 pm

    @Graillotion I have the AVC and am ready to experiment next week! One question I have is about pH adjusting when using AVC. I have seen other electrolyte-sensitive polymers mention pH adjusting can negatively affect viscosity. How are you pH adjusting, if needed, when using AVC? 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    July 16, 2022 at 5:53 pm

    @Graillotion I have the AVC and am ready to experiment next week! One question I have is about pH adjusting when using AVC. I have seen other electrolyte-sensitive polymers mention pH adjusting can negatively affect viscosity. How are you pH adjusting, if needed, when using AVC? 

    I adjust early….in the water phase before combination of phases.  Just my method, nothing special about it.  I use lactic acid.  Since I add AVC to the oil phase, and adjust pH in the water phase, I am unable to know how it is impacting viscosity.  So, like any evaluation of viscosity…I evaluate the end product.  If the end product does not have what you want…you put it in your notes…and adjust on the next iteration.
    Aloha.

  • MattTheChemist

    Member
    July 16, 2022 at 8:01 pm

    Thank you! Aloha to you as well. 

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