[ggpetrov]

There could be a lot of reasons. Olivem 1000 sometimes is a bit tricky, so it’s better to share your formula and workflow to get a proper advices. Also in my experience i’ve never had a sucsessful emulsion when I try to combine ethoxylated and non ethoxylated emulsifiers.

[ggpetrov]

I cannot give you a proper answer of your question, but I use Olivem 1000 in some of my products, and can give you some directions.

* At that level (2-2.5%) you need a proper gelling agent to stabilize the water phase. Me personally prefer to use 0.2% cosmetic grade xanthan + 0.3% Sodium carbomer.

* If you want to get a cream gel texture (without gelling agents) you need to increase the amount of Olivem 1000. The lowest point is 5% the maximum 10%.

* Olivem 1000 is very sensitive to temperature fluctuations. All of the ingredients during the emulsification should have similar temperatures. If not, the emulsion could break. If you need to add something that is not with the same temperature, do it below the 40 degrees.

* If you need to pair Olivem 1000, you can use Oliwax LC or Olivem 900 + Cetyl palmitate. They don’t give the same thickening as Cetyl / Cetearyl alcohol, but the haptical properties of the emulsions are amazing. I am talking about fast absorbing, extremely softening the skin, and no waxiness, no heavy feeling on the skin, compared to Cetyl / Cetearyl.

Hope this could helps 🙂

[ggpetrov]

I like the Sorbitol too. If the presence of electrolytes is not a problem, then you could try Sodium lactate or Sodium PCA.

[ggpetrov]

Aristoflex AVC is a pre-neutralized, which means that it should be processed gently. It can be homogenized for a short time at the lowest speed for better spreadability in the emulsion. You’d better use mixer instead.

[ggpetrov]

Ceteareth-20 is ethoxylated, but it presents in your list. Why?

[ggpetrov]

Manischemicals, Aurorasense, Youmakecosmetics - Greek sites. Glamourcosmetic - Italian. Alexmo cosmetic, Dragonspice - German.

[ggpetrov]

I think this discussion will be meaningless, because it’s a matter of taste rather than to have an objective arguments. About Montanov 202 I think it’s overprized and I can’t see anything special about this emulsifier.
Me personally, prefer to use very basic emulsifiers, which I can buy from anywhere, and also I prefer to make my own blends. 

[ggpetrov]

If you are talking about a lotion/cream and if you use a high HLB emulsifier, you should use GMS to lower the HLB. It’s hard to explain but the lowering of the HLB makes the emulsions tactile softer and very pleasant. It’s a matter of experiment to get the exact percentage of the GMS, but avoid to use too much. Better start with something small - 1% for example. 

[ggpetrov]

I think they are incomparable. Also it’s very strange that you get a thicker emulsion with the GMS. In my experience GMS tends to give a lower viscosity compared to Cetearyl alcohol. 
At that percents I guess it’s a pretty heavy and unpleasant emulsion. GMS has a lower hlb value, and tends to lower the whole hlb of the emulsion. This leads to emulsion with a softer touch. Cetearyl alcohol creates a bit “heavier” emulsions, but with more driyer touch.
In my experience at levels above 2% both GSM and Cetearyl alcohol slows the absorption at all and have waxy and unpleasant touch on the skin.
Depending of the emulsifier, I usually use both in my emulsions.

[ggpetrov]

Can’t talk about the stand alone emulsifiers, but recently i am experimenting with the combination of Glyceryl stearate SE + Ceteareth 25 as a combo, and it gives a really dry feel. By saying this i mean very fast absorbing without sticky and oily feel, but meanwhile the skin is soft and hydrated. 

[ggpetrov]

I can’t remember properly, but when ngarayeva001mentioned the site for the first time, I made a test purchase. I choose some esters and an emulsifier, if I remember the gross weight was about 2.5 kilograms, and the shipping was something about 80 euro, but the actual cost for the ingredients was about 30 euro. For example I usually buy ingredients from Greece with a shipping about 5 euro, and from Germany for about 6-7 euro. As you can see the difference is brutal, also I can live perfectly without the exotic ingredients from Thailand.

[ggpetrov]

Me personally, can’t afford the shipping costs. Some time ago I placed a test order, and when I got the shipping prise I almost got a hearth attack. The price was far beyond the cost of the overall order, so I cancelled it. If that matters I live in Bulgaria.

[ggpetrov]

From the Evonik’s formulations guidelines, i’ve noticed that the heating temperature has a correlation with the percentage of the water. If the formula is for cream then the melting temperature is lower, if we make a lotion with high water content, then the melting temperature is higher. I generally heat the oil phase to 85-90 degrees in a microwave oven, just to be sure that everything is melted properly.

[ggpetrov]

marimaster_3991 said:

@chemicalmatt thank you! I actually thought of using ceteareth-20, but since it comes with cetearyl alcohol I got insecure about the viscosity it would get. I’m looking for a fluid lotion physical aspect. 

Then you can use Glyceryl stearate & PEG 100 stearate. It doesn’t give any viscosity, so you can play with the other consistency modificators.

[ggpetrov]

Just a correction, the collagen and the elastin aren’t cells, they are structural proteins.

[ggpetrov]

Abdullah said:

Phenoxyethanol is volatile and some of will evaporate in high temperature, if added too early at product specially in large batches. 

Where did you read this?

[ggpetrov]

You can use Olivem 1000 or Polyaquol 2W to create such a product. Putting them into the water phase with or without any additional emollients, and you’ll get a nice cream gel which isn’t sticky.
The advantage is that you can use electrolytes without breaking the emulsion. 

[ggpetrov]

Actually they are incomparable. The Tara gum tends to make a kind of swirls no matter how to process it. I tried a lot of approaches but no one worked for me. If you make a clear water gel with only glycerin, then it’s fantastic and softens the skin. In emulsions it’s a real horror, especially in the next day.

[ggpetrov]

tinas said:

I have formulated with Emulsifying wax NF - it is polysorbate 60 in it, like to find a more natural substitute. I do have lots of cetearyl alcohol in stock. Could I use Sodium Cetearyl Sulfate toghether with cetearyl alcohol? Where can I buy this as a single ingredients?  

If you live in Europe, you can check this site : https://www.dragonspice.de/naturkosmetikRohstoffe/Emulgatoren/Alle-Emulgatoren/?pgNr=1

They sell some basic emulsifiers which you can combine with your Cetearyl alcohol.

Emul Care CG90 Aka Cerearyl glucoside - they still have it although it’s no longer produced.

Emulgin SG Aka Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate

Emulsan 2 Aka Methylglucose sesquistearate

Glyceryl Stearate SE

Softfeel PS Aka Polyglyceryl-3 Stearate

Also you can combine Olivem 1000 with the Cetearyl alcohol. I can’t agree that it is heavy. I think the people which say that can’t use it properly, but that’s my opinion.

[ggpetrov]

My favorite for the face is Olivem 1000 paired with Oliwax LC. This is my most popular product through my clients, both - men and women. 

[ggpetrov]

Euxyl PE 9010 is one of the most popular preservative blends in both homemade and industrial cosmetic products. Since it’s very uncomplicated to use, I can’t understand why you have these issues with the viscosity. Usually if you’d like to get a proper answer of your question, you should share the formula and the workflow. I’ve been using the BTMS 50 and Euxyl PE9010 in combination, and i’ve never had any problems. Also I don’t think BTMS is suitable for sensitive skin (since it’s cationic).

About the Gliceryl Stearate SE which have been mentioned above, as far as I know it’s anionic by nature, so it’s incompatible with the BTMS.

[ggpetrov]

Fekher said:

@HAL49 yes you have right about there are a lot of types of carbomer but my question about not resistant electrolyte ones did fatty (alcohol/acid) make them more resistant?

I am using pre-neutralized Carbomer in my products. I don’t think there’s a relation between the resistance and the percentage of the fatty alcohols. Also I think the idea behind the use of the Carbomer is to reduce the percent of the fat phase consistency givers, because they are heavy and unpleasant in high percentages.

[ggpetrov]

According to this blog post it’s a matter of equipment rather than the given formula.

[ggpetrov]

Paprik said:

Dimethicone - low cps. 
Decyl Oleate
Coco caprylate
Grapeseed oil perhaps? 
Rosehip oil perhaps? 

The problem is, the lighter the emollient, the less emolliency. 
That is why it is important to mix more lipids in a product to achieve the perfect balance. 

I don’t think Decyl oleate can be considered as light.

[ggpetrov]

I have Ceteareth-25 at home. I have used in several times in body lotions. It is ethoxylated, means that it uses the HLB system to calculate the fat phase. These emulsifiers have very high HLB, so you have to pair it with something with lower HLB. Usually this is GMS. Twice I tried to pair it with the Emulsan (methyl glucose sesquistearate), it didn’t work. The workflow is different, so I guess they are incompatible. Your plans to pair it with these emulsifiers you’ve mentioned, doesn’t make a sence.