[ggpetrov]

If you are talking about a lotion/cream and if you use a high HLB emulsifier, you should use GMS to lower the HLB. It’s hard to explain but the lowering of the HLB makes the emulsions tactile softer and very pleasant. It’s a matter of experiment to get the exact percentage of the GMS, but avoid to use too much. Better start with something small - 1% for example. 

[ggpetrov]

I think they are incomparable. Also it’s very strange that you get a thicker emulsion with the GMS. In my experience GMS tends to give a lower viscosity compared to Cetearyl alcohol. 
At that percents I guess it’s a pretty heavy and unpleasant emulsion. GMS has a lower hlb value, and tends to lower the whole hlb of the emulsion. This leads to emulsion with a softer touch. Cetearyl alcohol creates a bit “heavier” emulsions, but with more driyer touch.
In my experience at levels above 2% both GSM and Cetearyl alcohol slows the absorption at all and have waxy and unpleasant touch on the skin.
Depending of the emulsifier, I usually use both in my emulsions.

[ggpetrov]

Can’t talk about the stand alone emulsifiers, but recently i am experimenting with the combination of Glyceryl stearate SE + Ceteareth 25 as a combo, and it gives a really dry feel. By saying this i mean very fast absorbing without sticky and oily feel, but meanwhile the skin is soft and hydrated. 

[ggpetrov]

I can’t remember properly, but when ngarayeva001mentioned the site for the first time, I made a test purchase. I choose some esters and an emulsifier, if I remember the gross weight was about 2.5 kilograms, and the shipping was something about 80 euro, but the actual cost for the ingredients was about 30 euro. For example I usually buy ingredients from Greece with a shipping about 5 euro, and from Germany for about 6-7 euro. As you can see the difference is brutal, also I can live perfectly without the exotic ingredients from Thailand.

[ggpetrov]

Me personally, can’t afford the shipping costs. Some time ago I placed a test order, and when I got the shipping prise I almost got a hearth attack. The price was far beyond the cost of the overall order, so I cancelled it. If that matters I live in Bulgaria.

[ggpetrov]

From the Evonik’s formulations guidelines, i’ve noticed that the heating temperature has a correlation with the percentage of the water. If the formula is for cream then the melting temperature is lower, if we make a lotion with high water content, then the melting temperature is higher. I generally heat the oil phase to 85-90 degrees in a microwave oven, just to be sure that everything is melted properly.

[ggpetrov]

marimaster_3991 said:

@chemicalmatt thank you! I actually thought of using ceteareth-20, but since it comes with cetearyl alcohol I got insecure about the viscosity it would get. I’m looking for a fluid lotion physical aspect. 

Then you can use Glyceryl stearate & PEG 100 stearate. It doesn’t give any viscosity, so you can play with the other consistency modificators.

[ggpetrov]

Just a correction, the collagen and the elastin aren’t cells, they are structural proteins.

[ggpetrov]

Abdullah said:

Phenoxyethanol is volatile and some of will evaporate in high temperature, if added too early at product specially in large batches. 

Where did you read this?

[ggpetrov]

You can use Olivem 1000 or Polyaquol 2W to create such a product. Putting them into the water phase with or without any additional emollients, and you’ll get a nice cream gel which isn’t sticky.
The advantage is that you can use electrolytes without breaking the emulsion. 

[ggpetrov]

Actually they are incomparable. The Tara gum tends to make a kind of swirls no matter how to process it. I tried a lot of approaches but no one worked for me. If you make a clear water gel with only glycerin, then it’s fantastic and softens the skin. In emulsions it’s a real horror, especially in the next day.

[ggpetrov]

tinas said:

I have formulated with Emulsifying wax NF - it is polysorbate 60 in it, like to find a more natural substitute. I do have lots of cetearyl alcohol in stock. Could I use Sodium Cetearyl Sulfate toghether with cetearyl alcohol? Where can I buy this as a single ingredients?  

If you live in Europe, you can check this site : https://www.dragonspice.de/naturkosmetikRohstoffe/Emulgatoren/Alle-Emulgatoren/?pgNr=1

They sell some basic emulsifiers which you can combine with your Cetearyl alcohol.

Emul Care CG90 Aka Cerearyl glucoside - they still have it although it’s no longer produced.

Emulgin SG Aka Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate

Emulsan 2 Aka Methylglucose sesquistearate

Glyceryl Stearate SE

Softfeel PS Aka Polyglyceryl-3 Stearate

Also you can combine Olivem 1000 with the Cetearyl alcohol. I can’t agree that it is heavy. I think the people which say that can’t use it properly, but that’s my opinion.

[ggpetrov]

My favorite for the face is Olivem 1000 paired with Oliwax LC. This is my most popular product through my clients, both - men and women. 

[ggpetrov]

Euxyl PE 9010 is one of the most popular preservative blends in both homemade and industrial cosmetic products. Since it’s very uncomplicated to use, I can’t understand why you have these issues with the viscosity. Usually if you’d like to get a proper answer of your question, you should share the formula and the workflow. I’ve been using the BTMS 50 and Euxyl PE9010 in combination, and i’ve never had any problems. Also I don’t think BTMS is suitable for sensitive skin (since it’s cationic).

About the Gliceryl Stearate SE which have been mentioned above, as far as I know it’s anionic by nature, so it’s incompatible with the BTMS.

[ggpetrov]

Fekher said:

@HAL49 yes you have right about there are a lot of types of carbomer but my question about not resistant electrolyte ones did fatty (alcohol/acid) make them more resistant?

I am using pre-neutralized Carbomer in my products. I don’t think there’s a relation between the resistance and the percentage of the fatty alcohols. Also I think the idea behind the use of the Carbomer is to reduce the percent of the fat phase consistency givers, because they are heavy and unpleasant in high percentages.

[ggpetrov]

According to this blog post it’s a matter of equipment rather than the given formula.

[ggpetrov]

Paprik said:

Dimethicone - low cps. 
Decyl Oleate
Coco caprylate
Grapeseed oil perhaps? 
Rosehip oil perhaps? 

The problem is, the lighter the emollient, the less emolliency. 
That is why it is important to mix more lipids in a product to achieve the perfect balance. 

I don’t think Decyl oleate can be considered as light.

[ggpetrov]

I have Ceteareth-25 at home. I have used in several times in body lotions. It is ethoxylated, means that it uses the HLB system to calculate the fat phase. These emulsifiers have very high HLB, so you have to pair it with something with lower HLB. Usually this is GMS. Twice I tried to pair it with the Emulsan (methyl glucose sesquistearate), it didn’t work. The workflow is different, so I guess they are incompatible. Your plans to pair it with these emulsifiers you’ve mentioned, doesn’t make a sence.

[ggpetrov]

Montanov 202 as well as its ancestor Simulgreen 18-2 is a big shit. If I remember properly, there were a issue with the temperature in the cool down phase. If it drops too fast this could be reason for breaking the emulsion. Also the temperatures of the fat and the water phase should be very close, because if they are not - it’s a problem. Also during the cool down you have to agitate the emulsion with a propeller mixer, not with a spoon. Me personally didn’t have any issues with the Montanov 202, but I didn’t like it. It’s expensive, and gives nothing more than the other emulsifiers I’m using do. I don’t think that this is a GMS SE or Cetyl alcohol issue. It’s just a freakish emulsifier.

[ggpetrov]

• Water → 78.8%
• Emulsifier → 4% (where emulsifier = montanov 202, montanov L, or olivem 1000)
• 1,3-Propanediol → 4%
• Xanthan gum → .02%
• Glyceryl Stearate SE → 1%
• Cetyl alcohol → 2%
• Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride → 10%

I think these emulsifiers are incomparable, at least the way you do it. 4% is way too much for that fat phase. Glyceryl stearate SE is a stand alone emulsifier. Maybe you mean Glyceryl monostearate? Olivem 1000 is a different planet, I use it a lot in my face products, but I think that you can achieve far pleasant and ellegant profile by replacing the Cetyl alcohol with the Oliwax LC for example. I don’t like Montanov 202! 10% lipid phase usually means a lotion. In lotions the common practice is to replace part of the fat phase thickeners - Fatty alcohols, Glyceryl monostearate, with water phase thickeners like synthetic polymers or natural gums, or both. This approach gives lighter and more pleasant textures. So with your test formula you can estimate nothing, because every emulsifier has it’s own unique properties. Many people don’t like Olivem 1000 for example, but I think it’s because they don’t know how to use it properly. If you look at the Hallstar’s example formulations, you will notice that they use about 1-3% Olivem 1000 (usually 2%) and very rare in 5-10% when you make a cream gels. So the devil is hidden in the details. Good luck!

[ggpetrov]

Graillotion said:

ggpetrov said:

Abdullah said:

ggpetrov said:

I’ve just looked at my worksheet. 2% Softfeel PS +

What is the INCI on Softfeel PS.  I could not find that on ULP.

http://dir.gcimagazine.com/detail/inci.html?id=Polyglyceryl-3+Stearate

According to this site, there are two emulsifiers with this name. The first one is made from Kinetik Technologies, and the second one from Evonik. I guess that the one from the Dragonspice store is the Evonik’s one, because they sell a lot of Evonik’s products.

[ggpetrov]

Abdullah said:

ggpetrov said:

Abdullah said:

@ggpetrov What percentage of emulsifiers did you use?

1 Usually I use about 3%, but I always pair the emulsifiers. 

Thanks 
For me BTMS dry and powdery feel was noticable from 0.5-1% BTMS. What percentage of pg3 stearate will have that feeling of 0.5-1% BTMS if it can have it al all?

I’ve just looked at my worksheet. 2% Softfeel PS + 0.5% GMS Citrate + 1% Cetearyl alcohol and 8% fat phase. Also I have used 0.2% Sodium Carbomer. Keep in mind that Softfeel tends to thicken the emulsion, so with this incredients I’ve got a thick lotion. The sensorial properties of the emulsion are wondefull. You have enough playtime, but when you finish, the emulsion dissapears literally. The feeling is that you have nothing on your skin, and even more you almost can’t leave a fingerprints on the objects. Meanwhile the skin is fresh and soft.

[ggpetrov]

Abdullah said:

@ggpetrov What percentage of emulsifiers did you use?

1 Usually I use about 3%, but I always pair the emulsifiers. 

[ggpetrov]

https://www.dragonspice.de/naturkosmetikRohstoffe/Alle-Rohstoffe-A-Z/Softfeel-PS.html

I’ve recently bought it from Dragonspice, and I loved it. It gives a very dry and powdery feeling coupled with GMS SE or GMS citrate, and also I noticed a kind of conditioning effect on the skin, something like BTMS.

I wouldn’t coupled it with Behenyl, because it really tends to give very dry and fast absorbing emulsions. I’d use Cetearyl instead

[ggpetrov]

mikeylamar said:

ggpetrov said:

mikeylamar said:

And how wouldnt cyclomethicone evaporate during the heat and hold phase?

You can smell it. The Cyclomethicone has a certain smell, which is pleasant for me. Usually I add it at 45-50 degrees, but I double the amount because of evaporation. Also I am homogenizing it in the emulsion for a few seconds.

How can a chemist be sure of how much cyclomethicone is left in the lotion even if adding extra to compensate for evaporation?

I’ve been discussing this with ngarayeva001, and she told me that in the industry they add the Cyclomethicone under vacuum so the evaporation isn’t a factor. At home, we can’t use such a vessels, so we can add it at the cool down phase and we can add extra amount of it. I don’t think there will be a difference, because the Cyclomethicone is very light and ethereal. About the IPM, I think they are incomparable at all. The IPM isn’t volatile so it can be used as a traditional emolient.