Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating O/W emulsifier/s that gives a dry feel upon application.

  • O/W emulsifier/s that gives a dry feel upon application.

    Posted by Graillotion on December 10, 2022 at 8:45 pm

    Yeah that might seem counter intuitive, but actually I am considering this for a slight remodel for my emulsified deo cream.

    I have tweaked the powders and emollients to the max, and a wise sage said….you probably can’t get any drier with the emulsification system you are using.

    So what are examples of ‘readily available’ emulsifiers, that go on dry….and feel dry?

    Aloha.

    Graillotion replied 1 year, 3 months ago 8 Members · 20 Replies
  • 20 Replies
  • Abdullah

    Member
    December 11, 2022 at 1:32 am

    Polyglyceryl 6 distearate

  • ggpetrov

    Member
    December 11, 2022 at 8:10 am

    Can’t talk about the stand alone emulsifiers, but recently i am experimenting with the combination of Glyceryl stearate SE + Ceteareth 25 as a combo, and it gives a really dry feel. By saying this i mean very fast absorbing without sticky and oily feel, but meanwhile the skin is soft and hydrated. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    December 11, 2022 at 9:34 am

    Thank you @Abdullah, and @ggpetrov … I suspect I’ll certainly have some GMS in there as part of the system.  It is part of the current system…and unlikely the source of the issue.

    This caught my eye today: ABIL® EM 97 S … 

    INCI Name:

    Bis-PEG/PPG-14/14 Dimethicone (and) Dimethicone

    What really caught my eye…. was that even though it was mainly a W/S emulsifier…it is listed as both a W/O or O/W co-emulsifier.  (I have enough D5 in the formula…that this will certainly be an asset.)

    I want to stay O/W …and am wondering if this might be just the magic the Dr ordered???  Evonik touts it for the AP/Deo realm. 

  • Abdullah

    Member
    December 11, 2022 at 12:41 pm

    You can use any w/o emulsifier as low hlb co emulsifier in o/w system.

  • Joy

    Member
    December 12, 2022 at 5:05 pm

    BTMS-25 or BTMS-50 feel relatively dry compared to other emulsifiers I’ve tried.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    December 12, 2022 at 8:55 pm

    Joy said:

    BTMS-25 or BTMS-50 feel relatively dry compared to other emulsifiers I’ve tried.

    I find cationic emulsifiers too limiting.  But thanks!

  • chemicalmatt

    Member
    December 13, 2022 at 6:34 pm

    @Graillotion I’m with @Abdullah on this one: use a polyglyceryl ester of fatty acids (PEFA) such as the PG-6 DS he mentions. These are esters so they feel like esters upon application: marvelous, no? Likely need to buddy up with another like glyceryl stearate. As for that alkyl silane ether, it only works as a w/o or w/Si invert emulsifier. Evonik was wasting your time and resources indicating for o/w. Yeesh!

  • Pharma

    Member
    December 13, 2022 at 8:10 pm

    @chemicalmatt Accoring to some other manufacturers, certain types of silicones work as o/w emulsifiers or at least co-emulsifiers… I found the following:


    Silquat
    versions, a cationic emulsion

    PEGylated dimethicones with at least 10 PEG units such as THIS
    and similar dimethicone
    elastomers

    PEG/PPG methicones or dimethicones with something in the range of 18
    or more PEGs and derivatives
    thereof, by preference more PEGs than PPGs (see ABIL Care)

    And there’s also that one polyglyceryl
    modified dimethicone

    Any insights regarding these (you’ll have to follow the links… it’s a copy-paste out of an email)?

  • Graillotion

    Member
    December 13, 2022 at 8:43 pm

    @Abdullah and @chemicalmatt … I was reading the propaganda (and it sounded wonderful) on the :

    Polyglyceryl-6 Distearate

    And even had a source lined up (Thai Place)… and then came to this line  :(

    Optimum pH is 6, but stable between 5.5 and 10.

    As this is a deo….pH must be below that…..way below that. 

    Any other ideas that might fit the bill…but would love working at 4.3 pH?  And if at all possible…prefer to stay O/W.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    December 14, 2022 at 12:29 am

    The 

    ABIL® Care 85 MB (INCI Name:

    Bis-PEG/PPG-16/16 PEG/PPG-16/16 Dimethicone (and) Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride)

    that @Pharma mentioned….seems to fit the bill…including available from the Thai supplier! 

    Evonik even showed it in a deo formula…. so might make a good addition.  Any thoughts on it?  I would more than likely… combine it with something.

  • Abdullah

    Member
    December 14, 2022 at 2:30 am

    @Abdullah and @chemicalmatt … I was reading the propaganda (and it sounded wonderful) on the :

    Polyglyceryl-6 Distearate

    And even had a source lined up (Thai Place)… and then came to this line  :(

    Optimum pH is 6, but stable between 5.5 and 10.

    As this is a deo….pH must be below that…..way below that. 

    Any other ideas that might fit the bill…but would love working at 4.3 pH?  And if at all possible…prefer to stay O/W.

    I have lotion sample from 2 years ago that is stable at pH 4.8-5. 
    I think it has no problem at pH 4-5.

  • chemicalmatt

    Member
    December 14, 2022 at 7:05 pm

    Polyglyceride esters are stable at pH 4.0, no problemo. Watch out above pH 12 however.

  • Pharma

    Member
    December 14, 2022 at 7:53 pm

    @Graillotion Polyglyceryl-6 distearate and PG-3 beeswaxate are the main
    emulsifiers in Emulium mellifera, that pot sitting unused on your shelf you sent me… just saying ;)
    .

  • Graillotion

    Member
    December 14, 2022 at 9:53 pm

    Pharma said:

    @Graillotion Polyglyceryl-6 distearate and PG-3 beeswaxate are the main
    emulsifiers in Emulium mellifera, that pot sitting unused on your shelf you sent me… just saying ;)
    .

    Of course…isn’t that how it always works out?  :D

  • patti

    Member
    January 3, 2023 at 10:35 am

    The 

    ABIL® Care 85 MB (INCI Name:

    Bis-PEG/PPG-16/16 PEG/PPG-16/16 Dimethicone (and) Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride)

    that @Pharma mentioned….seems to fit the bill…including available from the Thai supplier! 

    Evonik even showed it in a deo formula…. so might make a good addition.  Any thoughts on it?  I would more than likely… combine it with something.

    @Graillotion, I am trying to source this ingredient in Australia but have no luck in it. If you don’t mind, would you please be able to share the Thai place where this ingredient is available?
    Thank you very much.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    January 3, 2023 at 7:32 pm
  • patti

    Member
    January 4, 2023 at 1:29 am
  • Graillotion

    Member
    January 4, 2023 at 1:32 am

    patti said:

    Just so you know… 0-500 grams has the same set shipping fee…. so if you order super small….the shipping will kill you.  As you move above 500 grams…the increase is very marginal.

    Aloha.

  • Pattsi

    Member
    January 4, 2023 at 4:52 am

    I tried it, lovely silky dry skin feel, I loved it, a little expensive, but with my limited formulating skill I couldn’t make a stable emulsion.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    January 4, 2023 at 5:21 am

    Pattsi said:

    I tried it, lovely silky dry skin feel, I loved it, a little expensive, but with my limited formulating skill I couldn’t make a stable emulsion.

    I tried it in a complicated deo formula….and I also could not get it to work.  I did get a PG-6-DS with a couple of friends…that worked nicely plugged into the same formula.

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