[Anna_Maria]

do you mean to use only one for the same amount?

[Anna_Maria]

i’m using it at 2%

[Anna_Maria]

Perry said:

The first thing you are doing wrong is using TOO MANY ingredients!
You have over 40 ingredients! This is way too complicated.

So, first cut out unessential / overlaping ingredients.

For example, you include Polyquaternium 7, Polyquaternium 47, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride & Polyquaternium 39.  Why? They function the same way. There is no need to have both of them.  You only need 1 cationic polymer at most.

Then you have Cetrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate… These are all cationic surfactants that are all competing for the same sites on the hair. It is useless to have 3 when only 1 is needed.

Then you have oils and butters and all kinds of other things that simply interfere with the working of all the other ingredients.

If you want to create a good product you should start with only essential ingredients.

Water
Cationic Surfactant
Cationic Polymer
Fatty alcohol
Emulsifier
Fragrance
pH adjuster
Preservative

Once you create this formula, see how it performs. If it doesn’t work how you want then add ONE ingredient to see if that makes an improvement. If it works, then add some other ingredient to see if you make it work better. But if adding an ingredient makes no improvement, take it out and try something else.

There is really no reason to have any more than 15 ingredients in a conditioner.

Hello Perry,
I have one question. Do you mean we should add an emulsifier other than the fatty alcohol? can you give me an example of an emulsifier used in a conditioner. Thank you

[Anna_Maria]

Cuttinup97 said:

Perry said:

The first thing you are doing wrong is using TOO MANY ingredients!
You have over 40 ingredients! This is way too complicated.

So, first cut out unessential / overlaping ingredients.

For example, you include Polyquaternium 7, Polyquaternium 47, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride & Polyquaternium 39.  Why? They function the same way. There is no need to have both of them.  You only need 1 cationic polymer at most.

Then you have Cetrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate… These are all cationic surfactants that are all competing for the same sites on the hair. It is useless to have 3 when only 1 is needed.

Then you have oils and butters and all kinds of other things that simply interfere with the working of all the other ingredients.

If you want to create a good product you should start with only essential ingredients.

Water
Cationic Surfactant
Cationic Polymer
Fatty alcohol
Emulsifier
Fragrance
pH adjuster
Preservative

Once you create this formula, see how it performs. If it doesn’t work how you want then add ONE ingredient to see if that makes an improvement. If it works, then add some other ingredient to see if you make it work better. But if adding an ingredient makes no improvement, take it out and try something else.

There is really no reason to have any more than 15 ingredients in a conditioner.

Hi Perry,  Could a solubilizer be used here as well?

Hello Perry,
I have one question. Do you mean we should add an emulsifier other than the fatty alcohol? can you give me an example of an emulsifier used in a conditioner. Thank you

[Anna_Maria]

@Paprik Thank you ! Can you please share with me the reference where you found them. Thank you

[Anna_Maria]

@Perry also what do you think about trying PEG-150 distearate for thickening?

[Anna_Maria]

Perry said:

@Anna_Maria what is the surfactant system?

@Perry Cocamidopropyl-betaine, glucotain clear, decyl glucoside and coco glucoside. I will try today the Sodium Cocoamphoacetate. Sodium chloride doesnt work with any of these surfactants right? 

[Anna_Maria]

I’m struggling right now in thickening the face wash. I’m trying to do a sulfate free face wash but nothing worked with me for now. I tried tylose, xanthan gum, carbopol ultrez 20, and benecel E4M.

[Anna_Maria]

 @ketchito for the mixing im using a mxer and add oil slowly, keep the mix at 70 degrees for 10 mins high speed then cool down at room temperature at low speed. After cooling i homogenize for 5 mins then add cooling phase

[Anna_Maria]

ketchito said:

@Anna_Maria You need to be more specific. Do you add the oil phase slowly? Are you using a turbine mixer or an homogenizer? At which speed and for how long? Are you able to hold the temperature (70°C) during the whole emulsification process? Do you switch mixers and speeds during cooling down? Do you cool down with room temperature water or cold water? All of those things adfect your final viscosity.

Now, besides the manufacturing, do you use a structural (polymeric) agent to thicken your water phase?

i’m using tylose to thicken water phase

[Anna_Maria]

ketchito said:

@Anna_Maria If you need to add 7% of fatty alcohols to thicken your emulsion, maybe there’s something you need to fix in your formula or manufacturing method (both affect greatly the final viscosity).

I’m Preparing a water and oil phase (heated to 70 degrees) then added together, homogenizer and cool down. Silicones are added to the cooling phase.

[Anna_Maria]

Thank you for your answer. But is there any specific reason for that ?

[Anna_Maria]

Abdullah said:

There is no legal maximum. 

Why you want to use the maximum amount? 

It will cost you more without any good reason.

No exactly the opposite, i wanna know the limit % only to stay in the safe dosage

[Anna_Maria]

Thank youu!!

[Anna_Maria]

Glodie said:

hi all i need help with my formula and have a chemist input on my conditionner, would like to have ask about the best preservative i can use since i am using flaxeed gel, and are these percentage okay to use

water phase
flaxeed boiled in distilled water        76.5%
CETAC  30%                                       5%
honeyquat. or glycerine                      3%
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium.          0.5%

oil phase

coconut oil.           6%
btms25                 4% can i use btms85???
cetyl alcohol.         2%
 
cool down
panthenol.                                                     1%

euxyl pe9010 0r liquid germal plus ?????        1%
vitamin E                                                        0.5%
fragrance.                                                     0.5%

Isn’t 5% CETAC 30% too much ?

[Anna_Maria]

nhatnguyen10 said:

Anna_Maria said:

are you being able to have a good texture with these quantities without adding any cellulose or gums? @nhatnguyen10

I didnt make it yet, i need to hear some expert opinions or experience or mistake before start working on it. 

Do you have any recommendations Or experience with it?

Thank you!

I couldn’t reach a good texture with only cetyl and stearyl total 5% i had to add tylose to have a good texture 

[Anna_Maria]

Thank you, and if we use it we should declare it in the ingredient list? @Perry

[Anna_Maria]

are you being able to have a good texture with these quantities without adding any cellulose or gums? @nhatnguyen10

[Anna_Maria]

Abdullah said:

Maybe you are using too much amodimethicone  too. 

In my opinion even 1% BTMS is more than enough. But it is just me.

I’m using 3% amodimethicone

[Anna_Maria]

Perry said:

Yes, safe to use but sounds like more than you need. You could probably cut the percentages in half and not notice a performance difference 

Thank you so much Perry for your answer!!
Do you mean the percentages of BTMS and Behentrimonium chloride? or also the cetyl and stearyl alcohol?
Also one more question, I’m using amodimethicone as silicone for the after feel and the antistatic effect. Is there anything else i can use? because the result is not so satisfying.
I’m really thankful for your help!

[Anna_Maria]

Paprik said:

@Anna_Maria

Hello, yeah sure, I like to use Cetearyl Alcohol (it is fatty acid), Cetyl alcohol, you can use maybe even blend like Polawax GP 200 … 

But I usually stick with Cetearyl Alcohol as it works and it’s great and not expensive  

Cool! thank you!!

[Anna_Maria]

Paprik said:

1. Non-ionic helps with building viscosity and mildness to the product. Customers usually like thick product, they think it is a sign of well performing product. 
2. Definitely high HLB, it is for better wash off.

@@Paprik Helloo!! Can you help please with a suggestion of a high HLB non-ionic emulsifier that can be used in hair conditioner? Thanks!

[Anna_Maria]

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

There’s a very nice book called Cosmetic Formulation: Principles and Practice, you can find it online. Let me know if you have troubles getting it👍

Is there any pdf of this book? Any other pdf of cosmetic book?

i found the pdf free online ill share it here with you
https://www.academia.edu/73270426/Cosmetic_Formulation_Principles_and_Practice?source=swp_share

[Anna_Maria]

i tried with citric acid but still got same result

[Anna_Maria]

When i dilute my shampoo, i can see white filaments that ends up as white insoluble precipitate in the water.

Yes i use fragrance but i thought about it at the beginning and i tried hypoallergenic fragrance still the same result.

concerning the ingredients i have:

SLES 70% : 15%

CPB 45% : 8

Decyl glucoside 50% : 5

Guar: 0.2%

PQ7: 0.5

Silicone emulsion 30% : 2%

HWP powder: 0.2%

Final formula pH: 5.5