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Conditioner not Conditioning properly. Help.
INCI %Aqua 44.49Glycerin 6.00Disodium EDTA 0.10Sodium Hyaluronate 0.10Hydroxyethyl Cellulose 0.30Hydroxypropyl Starch Phosphate 0.60Jojoba Oil 5.00Coconut Oil 5.00Mango Butter 3.00Stearamidopropyl Diethylamine 3.00Shea Butter 1.00Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine 1.00Triheptanoin 1.00Isoamyl Laurate 1.00Argan Oil 1.00BHT 0.20Caffeine 0.10Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol 4.00Cetyl Alcohol 4.00Brassica Alcohol (and) Brassicamidopropyl Dimethylamine (and) Polyester-11 (and) Aspartic Acid (and) EDTA 2.00Behentrimonium Chloride 2.00Cetrimonium Chloride 2.00Hydrogenated Olive Oil (and) Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil (and) Olea Europaea (Olive) Oil Unsaponifiables 1.00Glyceryl Monostearate SE 1.00Cetearyl Alcohol 1.00Ceramide EOP (and) Ceramide NS (and) Ceramide NP (and) Ceramide AS (and) Ceramide AP (and) Cholesterol (and) Hydrogenated Lecithin (and) Glyceryl Stearate (and) 2,3-Butanediol 0.01Polyquaternium-7 1.50Aqua (and) Wheat Amino Acids (and) Soy Amino Acids (and) Arginine HCl (and) Serine (and) Threonine 1.001.00Water (and) Acetamide MEA (and) Hydrolyzed Keratin (and) Panthenol (and) Glycerin (and) Sorbitol (and) Sodium Cocoyl Collagen Amino Acids (and) Cocoyl Sarcosine (and) Wheat Germ Acid (and) Triticum Vulgare (Wheat) Germ Oil (and) Polysorbate 20 (and) Linoleic Acid (and) Linolenic Acid (and) Tocopherol (and) Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil (and) Tocopheryl Acetate (and) Polysorbate 80 (and) Hydrolyzed Glycosaminoglycans 1.00Hydrolyzed Quinoa 0.50Polyquaternium-47 0.50Polyquaternium-39 0.50Orbignya Speciosa Kernel (Babassu) Oil (and) Astrocaryum Murumuru Fruit Extract 0.50Tocopherol (and) Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil 0.30Hydrolysed Keratin 0.30Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride 1.00Fragrance (1:1) 1.00Phenoxyethanol 0.50Phenoxyethanol (and) Benzoic Acid (and) Dehydroacetic Acid 0.50Citric AcidThis is my formulation for a rinse off conditioner but the cationics are not being left behind to provide adequate detangling and conditioning benefits. pH is 4.6
Kindly suggest where I am going wrong? -
17 Replies
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The first thing you are doing wrong is using TOO MANY ingredients!
You have over 40 ingredients! This is way too complicated.So, first cut out unessential / overlaping ingredients.
For example, you include Polyquaternium 7, Polyquaternium 47, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride & Polyquaternium 39. Why? They function the same way. There is no need to have both of them. You only need 1 cationic polymer at most.
Then you have Cetrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate… These are all cationic surfactants that are all competing for the same sites on the hair. It is useless to have 3 when only 1 is needed.
Then you have oils and butters and all kinds of other things that simply interfere with the working of all the other ingredients.
If you want to create a good product you should start with only essential ingredients.
Water
Cationic Surfactant
Cationic Polymer
Fatty alcohol
Emulsifier
Fragrance
pH adjuster
PreservativeOnce you create this formula, see how it performs. If it doesn’t work how you want then add ONE ingredient to see if that makes an improvement. If it works, then add some other ingredient to see if you make it work better. But if adding an ingredient makes no improvement, take it out and try something else.
There is really no reason to have any more than 15 ingredients in a conditioner.
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Perry said:The first thing you are doing wrong is using TOO MANY ingredients!
You have over 40 ingredients! This is way too complicated.So, first cut out unessential / overlaping ingredients.
For example, you include Polyquaternium 7, Polyquaternium 47, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride & Polyquaternium 39. Why? They function the same way. There is no need to have both of them. You only need 1 cationic polymer at most.
Then you have Cetrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate… These are all cationic surfactants that are all competing for the same sites on the hair. It is useless to have 3 when only 1 is needed.
Then you have oils and butters and all kinds of other things that simply interfere with the working of all the other ingredients.
If you want to create a good product you should start with only essential ingredients.
Water
Cationic Surfactant
Cationic Polymer
Fatty alcohol
Emulsifier
Fragrance
pH adjuster
PreservativeOnce you create this formula, see how it performs. If it doesn’t work how you want then add ONE ingredient to see if that makes an improvement. If it works, then add some other ingredient to see if you make it work better. But if adding an ingredient makes no improvement, take it out and try something else.
There is really no reason to have any more than 15 ingredients in a conditioner.
Hi Perry, Could a solubilizer be used here as well?
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What would you want the solubilizer to do in the formula?
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Cuttinup97 said:Perry said:The first thing you are doing wrong is using TOO MANY ingredients!
You have over 40 ingredients! This is way too complicated.So, first cut out unessential / overlaping ingredients.
For example, you include Polyquaternium 7, Polyquaternium 47, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride & Polyquaternium 39. Why? They function the same way. There is no need to have both of them. You only need 1 cationic polymer at most.
Then you have Cetrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate… These are all cationic surfactants that are all competing for the same sites on the hair. It is useless to have 3 when only 1 is needed.
Then you have oils and butters and all kinds of other things that simply interfere with the working of all the other ingredients.
If you want to create a good product you should start with only essential ingredients.
Water
Cationic Surfactant
Cationic Polymer
Fatty alcohol
Emulsifier
Fragrance
pH adjuster
PreservativeOnce you create this formula, see how it performs. If it doesn’t work how you want then add ONE ingredient to see if that makes an improvement. If it works, then add some other ingredient to see if you make it work better. But if adding an ingredient makes no improvement, take it out and try something else.
There is really no reason to have any more than 15 ingredients in a conditioner.
Hi Perry, Could a solubilizer be used here as well?
Hello Perry,
I have one question. Do you mean we should add an emulsifier other than the fatty alcohol? can you give me an example of an emulsifier used in a conditioner. Thank you -
Perry said:The first thing you are doing wrong is using TOO MANY ingredients!
You have over 40 ingredients! This is way too complicated.So, first cut out unessential / overlaping ingredients.
For example, you include Polyquaternium 7, Polyquaternium 47, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride & Polyquaternium 39. Why? They function the same way. There is no need to have both of them. You only need 1 cationic polymer at most.
Then you have Cetrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate… These are all cationic surfactants that are all competing for the same sites on the hair. It is useless to have 3 when only 1 is needed.
Then you have oils and butters and all kinds of other things that simply interfere with the working of all the other ingredients.
If you want to create a good product you should start with only essential ingredients.
Water
Cationic Surfactant
Cationic Polymer
Fatty alcohol
Emulsifier
Fragrance
pH adjuster
PreservativeOnce you create this formula, see how it performs. If it doesn’t work how you want then add ONE ingredient to see if that makes an improvement. If it works, then add some other ingredient to see if you make it work better. But if adding an ingredient makes no improvement, take it out and try something else.
There is really no reason to have any more than 15 ingredients in a conditioner.
Hello Perry,
I have one question. Do you mean we should add an emulsifier other than the fatty alcohol? can you give me an example of an emulsifier used in a conditioner. Thank you -
You have everything but the kitchen sink in that formula! It’s not working because the oils consumed all of your emulsifiers. Commercial conditioners that say “with argan oil” have like 0.01% of actual oil in them.
Also, you literally have gums and polymers that require different pH! One needs to be acidified to hydrate, another needs a base. -
here:
INCI % Aqua 82.8% EDTA 0.2% Phenonip 1.0% BTMS-25 10.0% Behentrimonium chloride 3.0% Dimethicone 2.0% Fragrance 0.3% This is my formula, and it does a good job for my wavy and very coarse hair.
I don’t have any cationic gums because 2 emulsifiers are sufficient, in my opinion. Since I use BTMS 25, I don’t have any cetyl alcohol, but you need to adjust it if your version is 50%. Don’t add more than 0.1% of oils. Don’t expose it to too much high shear (overhead stirrer if you have it). Add polyquaternium 7 if you really want. -
Also, on caffeine, I am aware of the research saying that caffeine has a positive effect on hair growth, and it penetrates quickly enough to be used in the wash-off product. Although the latter is true, the study wasn’t conducted properly, and even if it was, conditioner is not supposed to be applied on the scalp, so your caffeine is just wasted. The same goes for all other active ingredients, including proteins.
I don’t hate hydrolysed proteins in hair care because they create a flexible, barely there film that, in my opinion, helps with styling. Having said that, it works in leave-in formulas.
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ngarayeva001 said:here:
INCI % Aqua 82.8% EDTA 0.2% Phenonip 1.0% BTMS-25 10.0% Behentrimonium chloride 3.0% Dimethicone 2.0% Fragrance 0.3% This is my formula, and it does a good job for my wavy and very coarse hair.
I don’t have any cationic gums because 2 emulsifiers are sufficient, in my opinion. Since I use BTMS 25, I don’t have any cetyl alcohol, but you need to adjust it if your version is 50%. Don’t add more than 0.1% of oils. Don’t expose it to too much high shear (overhead stirrer if you have it). Add polyquaternium 7 if you really want.Thank you for your input, I have a customer that has an even simpler/budjet formula that is not that bad for the hair but needs improvement. I am looking into replacing or at least reducing cetrimmonium chloride to comply with regulation. I was surprised to read the Cosing Anex V/44 refering to cetrimmonium or behentrimmonium chloreide allows only up to 0.1%. Does not specify if there is another case for rinse-off products.
The last update was on 2015, whereas there is an opinion for the safey when used other than preservative (?) that allows higher concentrations, even for leave-on products.
I am confused…Is your behetrimmonium chloride 30% active, meaning you are actually using 0.9%?
Is there anything else valid in your country?
Thank you in advance. -
@MariaSibon Annex V is for approved preservarives. Since you are using those cationics as condirioning agents, you should use Annex III (ref 286).
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Mine is Varisoft BT 85 and according to Evonik it can be used up to 10% (which is overkill)
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ketchito said:@MariaSibon Annex V is for approved preservarives. Since you are using those cationics as condirioning agents, you should use Annex III (ref 286).
Dear @ketchito, thank you very much for the clarification.
According to Annex III/286, it can be used in higher concentrations, which agrees with the published opinion : 2,5% for rinse off, 1,0% for hair leave-on, 0,5% for face leave-on.
It makes absolutely no sense to me, (what is it is use as conditioning or preservative, as long is the same compound?) but for the time being is very convenient to comply with Annex III.
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Dear @ngarayeva001,
Thank you very much.
Annex iii/287 allows even higher concentrations for behentrimmonium chloride, 5%,3% and 3% respectively.We currently have stock of cetrimmonium chloride.
Do you have any experience on comparing the performance between cetrimmonium versus behentrimmnoium chloride? I am wondering if it worths to invest on the latter one as it allows higher concentrations.
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@ketchito @MariaSibon in ref 6 the upper limit for sodium chloride is 3%. Does it mean we should not use more than 3% NACL in shampoo or face wash?
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@Abdullah If you’re refering to ref 6 of the Annex III, that one is for sodium and potassium chlorate which are different than sodium and potassium chloride. There is no restriction for the level of sodium chloride in a cosmetic formula (except for the chemical ones).
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ketchito said:@Abdullah If you’re refering to ref 6 of the Annex III, that one is for sodium and potassium chlorate which are different than sodium and potassium chloride. There is no restriction for the level of sodium chloride in a cosmetic formula (except for the chemical ones).
Yeah
My mistake
Thanks -
@ketchito if BTMC has antimicrobial effects, against which microorganisms is it effective?
Do you know it’s MIC?