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Home › Cosmetic Science Talk › Innovation › Conditioner not Conditioning properly. Help.

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  • Innovation

    Conditioner not Conditioning properly. Help.

    Posted by drsimranjit_lv on October 6, 2022 at 2:20 pm
    INCI %
    Aqua 44.49
    Glycerin 6.00
    Disodium EDTA 0.10
    Sodium Hyaluronate 0.10
    Hydroxyethyl Cellulose 0.30
    Hydroxypropyl Starch Phosphate 0.60
    Jojoba Oil 5.00
    Coconut Oil 5.00
    Mango Butter 3.00
    Stearamidopropyl Diethylamine 3.00
    Shea Butter 1.00
    Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine 1.00
    Triheptanoin 1.00
    Isoamyl Laurate 1.00
    Argan Oil 1.00
    BHT 0.20
    Caffeine 0.10
    Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol 4.00
    Cetyl Alcohol 4.00
    Brassica Alcohol (and) Brassicamidopropyl Dimethylamine (and) Polyester-11 (and) Aspartic Acid (and) EDTA 2.00
    Behentrimonium Chloride 2.00
    Cetrimonium Chloride 2.00
    Hydrogenated Olive Oil (and) Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil (and) Olea Europaea (Olive) Oil Unsaponifiables 1.00
    Glyceryl Monostearate SE 1.00
    Cetearyl Alcohol 1.00
    Ceramide EOP (and) Ceramide NS (and) Ceramide NP (and) Ceramide AS (and) Ceramide AP (and) Cholesterol (and) Hydrogenated Lecithin (and) Glyceryl Stearate (and) 2,3-Butanediol 0.01
    Polyquaternium-7 1.50
    Aqua (and) Wheat Amino Acids (and) Soy Amino Acids (and) Arginine HCl (and) Serine (and) Threonine 1.00
    1.00
    Water (and) Acetamide MEA (and) Hydrolyzed Keratin (and) Panthenol (and) Glycerin (and) Sorbitol (and) Sodium Cocoyl Collagen Amino Acids (and) Cocoyl Sarcosine (and) Wheat Germ Acid (and) Triticum Vulgare (Wheat) Germ Oil (and) Polysorbate 20 (and) Linoleic Acid (and) Linolenic Acid (and) Tocopherol (and) Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil (and) Tocopheryl Acetate (and) Polysorbate 80 (and) Hydrolyzed Glycosaminoglycans 1.00
    Hydrolyzed Quinoa 0.50
    Polyquaternium-47 0.50
    Polyquaternium-39 0.50
    Orbignya Speciosa Kernel (Babassu) Oil (and) Astrocaryum Murumuru Fruit Extract 0.50
    Tocopherol (and) Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil 0.30
    Hydrolysed Keratin 0.30
    Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride 1.00
    Fragrance (1:1) 1.00
    Phenoxyethanol 0.50
    Phenoxyethanol (and) Benzoic Acid (and) Dehydroacetic Acid 0.50
    Citric Acid

    This is my formulation for a rinse off conditioner but the cationics are not being left behind to provide adequate detangling and conditioning benefits. pH is 4.6 
    Kindly suggest where I am going wrong?

    Abdullah replied 3 months, 1 week ago 7 Members · 16 Replies
  • 16 Replies

  • Abdullah

    Member
    October 27, 2022 at 2:28 pm

    @ketchito if BTMC has antimicrobial effects, against which microorganisms is it effective? 

    Do you know it’s MIC? 

  • Abdullah

    Member
    October 27, 2022 at 2:27 pm

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah If you’re refering to ref 6 of the Annex III, that one is for sodium and potassium chlorate which are different than sodium and potassium chloride. There is no restriction for the level of sodium chloride in a cosmetic formula (except for the chemical ones).

    Yeah 
    My mistake 
    Thanks

  • ketchito

    Member
    October 27, 2022 at 3:32 am

    @Abdullah If you’re refering to ref 6 of the Annex III, that one is for sodium and potassium chlorate which are different than sodium and potassium chloride. There is no restriction for the level of sodium chloride in a cosmetic formula (except for the chemical ones).

  • Abdullah

    Member
    October 27, 2022 at 2:14 am

    @ketchito @MariaSibon in ref 6 the upper limit for sodium chloride is 3%. Does it mean we should not use more than 3% NACL in shampoo or face wash? 

  • MariaSibon

    Member
    October 26, 2022 at 10:41 am

    Dear @ngarayeva001,

    Thank you very much.
    Annex iii/287 allows even higher concentrations for behentrimmonium chloride, 5%,3% and 3% respectively. 

    We currently have stock of cetrimmonium chloride.

    Do you have any experience on comparing the performance between cetrimmonium versus behentrimmnoium chloride? I am wondering if it worths to invest on the latter one as it allows higher concentrations.

  • MariaSibon

    Member
    October 26, 2022 at 10:31 am

    ketchito said:

    @MariaSibon Annex V is for approved preservarives. Since you are using those cationics as condirioning agents, you should use Annex III (ref 286).

    Dear @ketchito, thank you very much for the clarification.

    According to Annex III/286, it can be used in higher concentrations, which agrees with the published opinion : 2,5% for rinse off, 1,0% for hair leave-on, 0,5% for face leave-on. 

    It makes absolutely no sense to me, (what is it is use as conditioning or preservative, as long is the same compound?) but for the time being is very convenient to comply with Annex III.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    October 25, 2022 at 12:23 pm

    Mine is Varisoft BT 85 and according to Evonik it can be used up to 10% (which is overkill)

  • ketchito

    Member
    October 25, 2022 at 12:13 pm

    @MariaSibon Annex V is for approved preservarives. Since you are using those cationics as condirioning agents, you should use Annex III (ref 286).

  • MariaSibon

    Member
    October 25, 2022 at 11:59 am

    here:

    INCI %
    Aqua 82.8%
    EDTA 0.2%
    Phenonip 1.0%
    BTMS-25 10.0%
    Behentrimonium chloride 3.0%
    Dimethicone 2.0%
    Fragrance 0.3%

    This is my formula, and it does a good job for my wavy and very coarse hair.
    I don’t have any cationic gums because 2 emulsifiers are sufficient, in my opinion. Since I use BTMS 25, I don’t have any cetyl alcohol, but you need to adjust it if your version is 50%. Don’t add more than 0.1% of oils. Don’t expose it to too much high shear (overhead stirrer if you have it). Add polyquaternium 7 if you really want.

    Thank you for your input, I have a customer that has an even simpler/budjet formula that is not that bad for the hair but needs improvement. I am looking into replacing or at least reducing cetrimmonium chloride to comply with regulation. I was surprised to read the Cosing Anex V/44 refering to cetrimmonium or behentrimmonium chloreide allows only up to 0.1%. Does not specify if there is another case for rinse-off products. 
    The last update was on 2015, whereas there is an opinion for the safey when used other than preservative (?) that allows higher concentrations, even for leave-on products.
    I am confused…

    Is your behetrimmonium chloride 30% active, meaning you are actually using 0.9%? 
    Is there anything else valid in your country?
    Thank you in advance.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    October 25, 2022 at 6:18 am

    Also, on caffeine, I am aware of the research saying that caffeine has a positive effect on hair growth, and it penetrates quickly enough to be used in the wash-off product. Although the latter is true, the study wasn’t conducted properly, and even if it was, conditioner is not supposed to be applied on the scalp, so your caffeine is just wasted. The same goes for all other active ingredients, including proteins.

    I don’t hate hydrolysed proteins in hair care because they create a flexible, barely there film that, in my opinion, helps with styling. Having said that, it works in leave-in formulas.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    October 25, 2022 at 6:12 am

    here:

    INCI %
    Aqua 82.8%
    EDTA 0.2%
    Phenonip 1.0%
    BTMS-25 10.0%
    Behentrimonium chloride 3.0%
    Dimethicone 2.0%
    Fragrance 0.3%

    This is my formula, and it does a good job for my wavy and very coarse hair.
    I don’t have any cationic gums because 2 emulsifiers are sufficient, in my opinion. Since I use BTMS 25, I don’t have any cetyl alcohol, but you need to adjust it if your version is 50%. Don’t add more than 0.1% of oils. Don’t expose it to too much high shear (overhead stirrer if you have it). Add polyquaternium 7 if you really want.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    October 25, 2022 at 6:05 am

    You have everything but the kitchen sink in that formula! It’s not working because the oils consumed all of your emulsifiers. Commercial conditioners that say “with argan oil” have like 0.01% of actual oil in them. 
    Also, you literally have gums and polymers that require different pH! One needs to be acidified to hydrate, another needs a base.

  • Anna_Maria

    Member
    October 24, 2022 at 7:06 am

    Perry said:

    The first thing you are doing wrong is using TOO MANY ingredients!
    You have over 40 ingredients! This is way too complicated.

    So, first cut out unessential / overlaping ingredients.

    For example, you include Polyquaternium 7, Polyquaternium 47, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride & Polyquaternium 39.  Why? They function the same way. There is no need to have both of them.  You only need 1 cationic polymer at most.

    Then you have Cetrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate… These are all cationic surfactants that are all competing for the same sites on the hair. It is useless to have 3 when only 1 is needed.

    Then you have oils and butters and all kinds of other things that simply interfere with the working of all the other ingredients.

    If you want to create a good product you should start with only essential ingredients.

    Water
    Cationic Surfactant
    Cationic Polymer
    Fatty alcohol
    Emulsifier
    Fragrance
    pH adjuster
    Preservative

    Once you create this formula, see how it performs. If it doesn’t work how you want then add ONE ingredient to see if that makes an improvement. If it works, then add some other ingredient to see if you make it work better. But if adding an ingredient makes no improvement, take it out and try something else.

    There is really no reason to have any more than 15 ingredients in a conditioner.

    Hello Perry,
    I have one question. Do you mean we should add an emulsifier other than the fatty alcohol? can you give me an example of an emulsifier used in a conditioner. Thank you

  • Anna_Maria

    Member
    October 24, 2022 at 7:05 am

    Cuttinup97 said:

    Perry said:

    The first thing you are doing wrong is using TOO MANY ingredients!
    You have over 40 ingredients! This is way too complicated.

    So, first cut out unessential / overlaping ingredients.

    For example, you include Polyquaternium 7, Polyquaternium 47, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride & Polyquaternium 39.  Why? They function the same way. There is no need to have both of them.  You only need 1 cationic polymer at most.

    Then you have Cetrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate… These are all cationic surfactants that are all competing for the same sites on the hair. It is useless to have 3 when only 1 is needed.

    Then you have oils and butters and all kinds of other things that simply interfere with the working of all the other ingredients.

    If you want to create a good product you should start with only essential ingredients.

    Water
    Cationic Surfactant
    Cationic Polymer
    Fatty alcohol
    Emulsifier
    Fragrance
    pH adjuster
    Preservative

    Once you create this formula, see how it performs. If it doesn’t work how you want then add ONE ingredient to see if that makes an improvement. If it works, then add some other ingredient to see if you make it work better. But if adding an ingredient makes no improvement, take it out and try something else.

    There is really no reason to have any more than 15 ingredients in a conditioner.

    Hi Perry,  Could a solubilizer be used here as well?

    Hello Perry,
    I have one question. Do you mean we should add an emulsifier other than the fatty alcohol? can you give me an example of an emulsifier used in a conditioner. Thank you

  • Perry

    Member
    October 21, 2022 at 12:10 pm

    What would you want the solubilizer to do in the formula?

  • Cuttinup97

    Member
    October 21, 2022 at 4:38 am

    Perry said:

    The first thing you are doing wrong is using TOO MANY ingredients!
    You have over 40 ingredients! This is way too complicated.

    So, first cut out unessential / overlaping ingredients.

    For example, you include Polyquaternium 7, Polyquaternium 47, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride & Polyquaternium 39.  Why? They function the same way. There is no need to have both of them.  You only need 1 cationic polymer at most.

    Then you have Cetrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate… These are all cationic surfactants that are all competing for the same sites on the hair. It is useless to have 3 when only 1 is needed.

    Then you have oils and butters and all kinds of other things that simply interfere with the working of all the other ingredients.

    If you want to create a good product you should start with only essential ingredients.

    Water
    Cationic Surfactant
    Cationic Polymer
    Fatty alcohol
    Emulsifier
    Fragrance
    pH adjuster
    Preservative

    Once you create this formula, see how it performs. If it doesn’t work how you want then add ONE ingredient to see if that makes an improvement. If it works, then add some other ingredient to see if you make it work better. But if adding an ingredient makes no improvement, take it out and try something else.

    There is really no reason to have any more than 15 ingredients in a conditioner.

    Hi Perry,  Could a solubilizer be used here as well?

  • Perry

    Member
    October 6, 2022 at 2:29 pm

    The first thing you are doing wrong is using TOO MANY ingredients!
    You have over 40 ingredients! This is way too complicated.

    So, first cut out unessential / overlaping ingredients.

    For example, you include Polyquaternium 7, Polyquaternium 47, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride & Polyquaternium 39.  Why? They function the same way. There is no need to have both of them.  You only need 1 cationic polymer at most.

    Then you have Cetrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate… These are all cationic surfactants that are all competing for the same sites on the hair. It is useless to have 3 when only 1 is needed.

    Then you have oils and butters and all kinds of other things that simply interfere with the working of all the other ingredients.

    If you want to create a good product you should start with only essential ingredients.

    Water
    Cationic Surfactant
    Cationic Polymer
    Fatty alcohol
    Emulsifier
    Fragrance
    pH adjuster
    Preservative

    Once you create this formula, see how it performs. If it doesn’t work how you want then add ONE ingredient to see if that makes an improvement. If it works, then add some other ingredient to see if you make it work better. But if adding an ingredient makes no improvement, take it out and try something else.

    There is really no reason to have any more than 15 ingredients in a conditioner.

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