[abierose]

Could be a combination of all the above…the Allantoin is way too high and is most likely very abrasive to the skin, making it more sensitive to the high EO% as well as the benzyl alcohol…🤷‍♀️

[abierose]

Rice protein should be added in cool down below 40°c 😉

[abierose]

ngarayeva001 said:

I wouldn’t say their formulas are great. As well as large suppliers’ ones. Can you post which formula is that and what cold process emulsifiers you have already?

I agree with you….their formulas are not that great.

[abierose]

Perry said:

Tea tree oil might have some effect.

That was my first thought too.

[abierose]

A few things…..

Is Olivem 1000 enough to emulsify that large of an oil phase? Why not use Glyceryl Stearate & PEG 100 Stearate or some other emulsifier or co-emulsifier..?

Also, is Geoguard enough to preserve the hydrosol, colloidal oatmeal powder and honey powder…? Those can be some pretty tasty bug food and can be difficult to preserve effectively, especially with “natural” preservatives…

What PH Adhuster are you using at 1%? Seems a bit high to me ..🤷‍♀️

[abierose]

Congratulations Perry!!! 🎊 😃

[abierose]

Abdullah said:

AZIZ_KALUNGI256 said:

PhilGeis said:

As Pharma noted - sorbate/benzoate concetrations are too high  - drop each by 50% - and you don’t need both.  Suggest addition of phenoxyethanol.

In production, the water phase will grow microbes if you let it sit around.

Thanks.  I will try to source phenoxyethanol. 
Its rather scarce over here though

How do you know what scares people?
In my opinion asking people what is scaring you is not a good idea.

The best way to know is to check what preservative does the big companies, most popular products that majority of people in your area purchases use. This way you van know majority of people aren’t scared of that preservative. 

I think what AZIZ meant was it is difficult to source/get Phenoxyethanol…scarce as in rare or hard to come by 😉 

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

You should try the blend…and if you like it…I think I can put together a small group (in the US) to split the 35# MOQ.

Awesome!!

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

Isononyl Isononanoate is one of my new favorites too!! 😍 

Where did you get that?  I have not seen it for sale (from a repacker).  Did you get it from ULP?

BTW… I liked the blend MUCH better than just the straight II.  And yes…I tried both components separately as well.  II was too occlusive by itself…but the synergy…was stunning….I guess that is why they sell it as a blend. :smiley:

Yes I got mine from ULP I have not tried the blend but am definitely intrigued! So many ingredients, so little time!! 😆 

[abierose]

I’d like to bring this thread back from the archives as I too am curious about Galactoarabinan…does anyone have any experience formulating with it? Is it an effective humectant? I did read some information @Pharma posted about it back in 2020, stating it can make products feel drier and less tacky…is there anything else one should know about this product if one plans to formulate with it? Thanks in advance!

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

As a student of Pharma….I scoff at his 40+….

…I will say this…if I had kept it simple…I would have never discovered Pelemol 899 (Isononyl Isononanoate (and) Ethylhexyl Isononanoate)….and let me just say….OMG!

Isononyl Isononanoate is one of my new favorites too!! 😍 

[abierose]

MattTheChemist said:

@sal you can also look into Cromollient SCE by Croda. 

This is what I use and it works beautifully for my self-emulsifying oil cleanser(s).

[abierose]

@Microformulation is right. Personally the only butter that I’ve tried that I wouldn’t classify as greasy would be Illipe butter. Shea, Mango, Cocao, Kokum, Cupuacu, Coconut…all feel greasy to me but I do still use some of these butters occasionallybut at very small amounts…like less than 1%…. Babassu is a very nice butter also but can be slightly greasy too. Just my humble opinion 😊

As @Charlene pointed out, the other elements in your formula can/will dictate the end feel.

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

After further review….the above is a slightly different product…but wait….it gets worse.

The recalled product advertises…with gem stones…and is sold in a clear bottle, and looks like a scoop or river gravel from the Ganga river is included in every bottle… OMG.

🤣

[abierose]

Does the INCI on the product above even follow FDA labeling laws…? “…lotus flower and tiger Lily infusion..” ?

[abierose]

Sincityfire said:

Perry said:

@Sincityfire which products are you referring to? You have a link?

Sure, here are the products and their ingredient lists:

• L’Occitane Almond Shower Oil: Vitis Vinifera (grape) Seed Oil, Tipa-laureth Sulfate, Laureth-3, Caprylic/capric Triglyceride, Parfum/fragrance, Cocamide Mea, Propylene Glycol, Sorbitan Oleate, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (sweet Almond) Oil, Citrus Aurantium Bergamia (bergamot) Fruit Oil, Helianthus Annuus (sunflower) Seed Oil, Rosmarinus Officinalis (rosemary) Leaf Extract, Tocopherol, Aqua/water, Limonene, Coumarin, Linalool

• The Body Shop Hemp Hydrating & Protecting Shower Oil: Glycine Soja Oil/Glycine Soja (Soybean) Oil, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Laureth-3, MIPA-Laureth Sulfate, Cannabis Sativa Seed Oil, Laureth-7 Citrate, Ricinus Communis Seed Oil/Ricinus Communis (Castor) Seed Oil, Parfum/Fragrance, Polyglyceryl-2 Caprate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Tocopherol, Hydrogenated Palm Glycerides Citrate, Citric Acid

• Lush - not completely anhydrous but they often use glycerin instead of water as the main diluent, for example: Honey I Washed the Kids Shower Gel: Honey, Glycerine, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Sodium Cocoamphoacetate, Rosehip; Lotus Flowers And Tiger Lily Infusion, Perfume, Brazilian Orange Oil, Bergamot Oil, Titanium Dioxide, Amyl Cinnamal, *Citronellol, *Geraniol, *Limonene, *Linalool

So since the Lush product is anhydrous, does this negate the preservation issues typically associated with formulating with honey? Especially since it is listed as the first ingredient??

@Perry @PhilGeis @Pharma 

[abierose]

Perry said:

I guess my opinion is shaped from my upbringing in the USA and my scientific mindset. 

In the US, we highly regard the concept of free speech. So unless there is some really good reason for government to limit speech (and advertising is speech) people/companies should be able to say what they want. And if you have a skeptical, scientific mindset you’ll be able to better evaluate claims you see. When someone can make money off of you believing a specific thing, you have to be highly skeptical.

So, in a business to business situation I think it is reasonable for the business that is buying components from a supplier to assume that they may not be getting the entire truth about a raw material. Don’t automatically believe supplier marketing material. I think it is reasonable because the company that makes an end product should be almost as knowledgable about the component raw materials as the company they buy from. Basically, they should be hard to fool.

On the other hand, consumers can’t be expected to know much about the products they buy. There is such a wide range of products to buy from food to cars to electronic to cosmetics, etc. they couldn’t possibly know much about everything. It’s much easier to fool most consumers.  So I believe it is reasonable to have more restrictions on what companies can say in advertising when they are selling to consumers.    

If we had a better educated, less gullible population then I think we wouldn’t need restrictions on speech. But the way the world is now, I think it makes sense to have the minimal guidelines we have now. 

Incidentally, this is why I believe very little of what is published by suppliers about raw materials. I’ll try anything, and come to my own conclusions about whether it really works as advertised.

Wow, I could not agree more!!

I definitely believe there needs to be labeling requirements in place to protect the consumer, even if in the end they’re going to believe what they want anyway. 🤷‍♀️

Anyway, I always value your feedback greatly @Perry and appreciate your ability to explain things in an eloquent and easy to understand manner! 😊

[abierose]

Perry said:

It’s not a silly question. 
It’s because labeling rules apply to business to consumer transactions. 
The same rules do not apply to business to business transactions.
The assumption is that when raw material suppliers sell you a raw material, they are selling you a component of a product, not the actual product.

Oh, ok, thanks @Perry for explaining that…I thought maybe I was just missing something somewhere! What are your thoughts on this? Do you feel that ingredients suppliers should be allowed to make the claims we can’t without adhering to the FDA cosmetic/drug laws..? I’m not really sure how I feel about it honestly…my initial thought was that they should have to abide by the same laws as the cosmetic companies that use their products but is there other reasons why they can make claims that we cannot? Just curious 😊

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

I’m just gonna end up ordering some more since I also just ran out of another new-to-me favorite ingredient…pentylene glycol 😁

Isn’t Pentylene magical?  Splish splash!

It really is!!

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

ngarayeva001  May I ask what is it that you like about isoamyl laurate? I wasn’t impressed by it at all.

Did you try the 100% IL….or the one that is 90% IL…and 10% something else….forget the name at the moment…. But I HATED that 90/10 blend.

Hehehe…I can’t live without my IL…. and I have them all.

I am totally in love with it too…I’m just gonna end up ordering some more since I also just ran out of another new-to-me favorite ingredient…pentylene glycol 😁

@ngarayeva001 I will try subbing the octyldodecanol and see if the feel is similar enough.

[abierose]

Pharma said:

Never worked with C12-15 alkyl benzoate… it should be quite similar.

Coco-caprylate/caprate is fairly similar (not similar enough for my taste), has a viscosity, spreading etc in the same range. Not quite as ‘good’ as IL and hence, I like IL more. It feels less greasy and comes with the perk of a short branched side chain.

The others all have higher viscosities, lower spreading, penetrate/dry not as fast, and are less polar. Even coco-caprylate/caprate isn’t really polar compared to IL and alkyl benzoates.

I would guess, from a theoretical musing, that a blend of C12-15 alkyl benzoate and coco-caprylate/caprate would come closest to IL.

Becaue I have more coco caprylate than IL in stock and the former is less expensive too, I use it as an IL substitute during trial formulations (notably, coco caprylate has a lower viscosity and higher spreading than coco caprylate/caprate and hence comes even closer to IL… nonetheless, I can still feel a difference).

Thank you so much!! I will try subbing out the IL for a blend of Coco Caprylate/Caprate and C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate and see how much of a difference it makes 😀 I appreciate your knowledge!!

[abierose]

Perry said:

The addition of the oil seems counter productive. I’m not sure you actually need it.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[abierose]

MarkBroussard said:

Yes, Perry … you may be correct

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[abierose]

ariepfadli said:

Try to measure its TDS and conductivity, you can see its distilled water, demin water or ordinary tap water

Could this be done with a ppm meter?

[abierose]

I have wondered this exact same thing. How reliable is the distilled water we buy at the grocery store and also how long is it good for, ie, shelf life..?