[suswang8]

EVchem said:

The aerosil is extremely small and light, highly recommend wearing a well-fitting mask because it will float around if you aren’t careful with addition. I’ve also noticed it can get draggy in higher amounts (>2%), especially if you don’t have any silicones/materials to provide slip in the formula.  

There are a huge variety of starches that may help beyond arrowroot, but I don’t know if they have repackers/are accessible for individuals. Maybe you could try  using micas/synthetic micas that are used to create matte looks in makeup?

This just in:  One notices that Dr. Hauschka and Weleda are using tapioca starch to achieve this, apparently.

[suswang8]

Quick question about the above % figures:

I see in old posts on this forum that certain members indicated that the % of ethanol they recommended is the % of the water phase, not the % of the total formulation.  So when the above members say 20%, for example, are the above members speaking about 20% ethanol for the entire formula, or just that ethanol needs to comprise 20% of the water phase?

@RedCoast:  Actually, I plan to use only small amounts of glycols (and
specifically butylene), as I don’t really love the way they feel on the
skin.

Thank you.

[suswang8]

Thanks very much.  So no concern about this ingredient being “bug food”?

[suswang8]

Part of me thinks that to avoid direct user contact with the product, I could just use a pump dispenser (rather than jar), right?  (i.e., not necessarily a need to go airless, per se)

Thank you for the point on a vitamin C serum not being a good candidate for airless.  Any guidance on which kinds of products one would specifically need to shield from air?  Thank you.

[suswang8]

Hi, @Pharma.

I am experimenting with sucrose stearate now, and the particular variety I am using is food grade/edible.

Should one have concerns about this emulsifier being “bug food,” not just because it might be food grade, per se, but perhaps because it is partially derived from sugar?  Thank you.

[suswang8]

I cannot really help, other than to say the Internet is overflowing with C/E/ferulic recipes, such as this one:

https://lotioncrafter.com/blogs/facial-care/diy-c-e-with-ferulic-acid

I think to get more help on this board, if you don’t want to go with one of the recipes online, is to re-list your ingredients and indicate your phases.

[suswang8]

Graillotion said:

Pharma said:

Ascorbic acid is a stronger antioxidant than tocopherol and other phenolics. If you want to protect these, go with ascorbic acid for water soluble compounds or ascorbyl palmitate for oil soluble ones. 

Good read @Pharma, as you know I have a super duper oxidation issue with one of me developments, and I will try it today with both ascorbic acid and ascorbyl palmitate.  That way I working in both phases.  I did make an observation a while back, which I was not able to scientifically metabolize, I have that antioxidant blend I use (costly) that contains ascorbyl palmitate, various forms of E etc.  When I used that in one of the samples of said product, it seemed to have the most reduced oxidation.  I thought it was just my imagination….but maybe I/we are on to something!
Thank You

Flashback Thursday:  @Graillotion, can we ask if you found success using ascorbic acid (and ascorbyl palmitate?) to prevent oxidation?

[suswang8]

That would lead me to two questions:

-1-  When you say mag. hydroxide has the same consistency….how closely have you studied this?  I mean, you would really have to have looked at these very closely — perhaps under a microscope — to know whether one particle/grain was more abrasive than the other (when subject to friction).

-2-  How many testers are you speaking of?  Sodium bicarbonate is only problematic in a relatively small percentage of people, so in my view, I think you would need to have had 20+ testers test it for a week straight before being confident it was truly not irritating.

Someone online is claiming that it might be due to the alkaline nature of sodium bicarbonate.  I guess the particles “cling” to your skin, and the pH imbalance is enough to give you irritation — perhaps it’s worse in people whose skin is slightly more acidic than others’? 

[suswang8]

Blind leading the blind, but:

I am not sure if this is only an issue with underarm deodorant, or other products potentially?  Do you know?  If only underarm deodorant, then one possibility is that this is a semi-abrasive powder, and the “friction” would lead to irritation in those with sensitive skin.

[suswang8]

Hi, Anca.  I’m not sure if I can help much, but have you seen this video yet? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHYA0jvfQs0

I would just use xanthan gum unless there is a reason someone told you to use dehydroxanthan?  If Lysofix is your sole emulsifier, it looks like you will need to use at least 3% of it, and somewhere around 0.5% xanthan gum.

[suswang8]

Hi, @Formulator. 

I figure they are using 1% SA and 10% alcohol, which should be enough to solubolize the SA, but I thought one still needed to add an additional component (such as sodium citrate) to prevent it from crystallizing?  Or, if the pH is high enough (e.g., >3.5), this is not necessary?  Thanks again. 

[suswang8]

Thank you, @MarkBroussard.

-1-  Heating both phases and combining seemed to work fine for a few hours, but then overnight, I have crystallization.  I had added early into Phase A 0.45g of citric acid and 0.55g of sodium bicarbonate, which I suspected was the equivalent of adding 1g (1%) of sodium citrate, but perhaps I am incorrect? 

-2-  For this well-known formulation below (Dr. Dennis Gross Peel Pads), what do you think they are doing to keep the SA solubolized?  Could they solely be relying on the alcohol? 

“Water, Alcohol Denat. (SD Alcohol 40-, Glycolic Acid, Potassium
Hydroxide, Hamamelis Virginiana (Witch Hazel) Water, Salicylic Acid,
Polysorbate 20, Lactic Acid, Mandelic Acid, Malic Acid, Citric Acid,
Salix Alba (Willow) Bark Extract, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract,
Achillea Millefolium Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower
Extract, Soy Isoflavones, Anthemis Nobilis Flower Extract, Glycerin,
Copper PCA, Zinc PCA, Lecithin, Alcohol, Polysorbate 80, Disodium EDTA,
Menthone Glycerin Acetal, Fragrance, Phenoxyethanol, Benzoic Acid,
Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate”

Thank you.

[suswang8]

Sorry — just to eliminate confusion:

I am only using the following ingredients in my most recent test:

Dissolve 1g of salicylic acid into 10g of ethanol, and then adding that to 80g of water.  I am not using any other ingredients (no tea, no sodium phytate, no butylene glycol.)

@Formulator:  Thank you.  Please also see above because I seem to be having the same issue even trying to do 1% SA in 10% ethanol.  For the brewed tea, the water I used had been previously distilled, but thank you for mentioning.

[suswang8]

I just did a really simple test, with no additional ingredients and all components at room temperature:

If I dissolve 1g of salicylic acid into 10g of ethanol, all is fine.  If I then add that to 80g of water, things become a clumpy mess.    

[suswang8]

Hi, @MarkBroussard.  Thank you.

Regarding number 1, I did try it again using both Phase A and Phase B at room temperature, and the same thing happened.  (In that second trial, I was not using any sodium phytate.)  In all instances, when adding Phase B to A, it remains completely clear up to a certain point, and then after about the halfway point, if I add any more of Phase B, it starts to cloud and clump.

Incidentally, I again re-ran things by “adding” 1% sodium citrate to Phase A (by way of adding a bit of citric acid and sodium bicarbonate into the water) before adding Phase B.  Same cloudiness/clumping.  This trial was also done will all ingredients at room temperature.  

[suswang8]

I think we might be attempting to answer two separate questions/goals:

-1-  Which ingredients/actives help mattify the skin?

-2-  How can I make the finish of my emulsion less shiny?

Regarding #2, I believe Montanov 202 as an emulsifier is known for producing a more matte finish vs most emulsifiers, and I think @Graillotion can offer advice about this.  Additionally, I agree that many oils are less shiny than others, and you will need to experiment with which ones work best for you, given other considerations you are dealing with, such as price.  I can only say from experience that plum kernel oil is not very shiny, but I have only tried about 3-4 other oils (e.g., almond) as reference points.

[suswang8]

I just “re-ran” the above with just the following ingredients in Phase A (glycolic acid, water, glycerin), and with both Phases at room temperature.  Things similarly fell apart when I added Phase B to Phase A. 

[suswang8]

Thank you.

(ducking head in shame…..)

I am looking to make something fairly watery:  a light, daytime, low viscosity facial emulsion that can easily be used in a pump container.  Maybe “cream” is an oxymoron.

Does anyone know of any negatives (downsides) to using sucrose stearate (other than price and difficulty to find)?  And how would this compare to using GSC as sole emulsifier?  Thank you.

[suswang8]

Thank you, @MarkBroussard.  So combine them together (maybe 5-7pct concentration each?), heat them up, and then add 1-2% salicylic acid?

[suswang8]

@chemicalmatt

My very simple formulas are stable after one week (not much, but still thankful ::smiley: ) so I might press my luck and create something more complex, but I know you are correct — deep down inside — that they will eventually bomb.  What are the most commonly used ingredients in facial moisturizers that are cationic? 

I have to say I really love the very light consistency of it.  I do wonder what else I could use that’s similar, natural, non-comedogenic, and potent in that one would only need to use a low percentage of it.

@DrJekyll

I think blush/flush are roughly the same thing.  Basically, I meant that it seemed to turn my face rosy (and this sample formula does not have niacinamide in it).

[suswang8]

i thought palmitic acid is supposed to be a one-way ticket to acne (in those with acne-prone skin, at least)?

[suswang8]

Hi, @Juliatrudie. 

It’s been a while since I was experimenting left and right, but I used Emultop Velvet IP a couple times, at something like 2% concentration, plus 10% oils.  Emultop is an oiled, enriched soy lecithin.  In most cases, the formula would look fine for a couple days, but then fall apart.  I was using several other ingredients (powdered extracts, niacinamide, etc.), so I’m not sure of the main driver.  I perhaps did not spend long enough blending/homogenizing as this is a very high-maintenance ingredient. 

I also experimented with powdered/de-oiled lysolecithin from Cosphatec, which is quite a nice product, but some regard it as a co-emulsifier, not a primary one.  (Incidentally, it is still stable as a sole emulsifier at 4% in a simple hand cream two months after formulating.)   This product has an excellent, silicone-like skin feel, with a finish that is more matte than the Emultop, but allegedly the skin benefits of lysolecithin are not as great as lecithin, especially when enriched (outside my comprehension, though).  I think where I had last left off was trying to create something with a mix of this lyso plus the Emultop, so that the finish was slightly dewy and yet skin feel was silicone-ish.

Today, I started playing around with the Cosphatec oiled lysolecithin, with a first batch using ~1.75% of it, plus 8% almond oil.  With only 2% glycerin, it still feels a bit more sticky than ideal, but I’m quite picky.  I used a cold-process method described here.

I’ve never had an issue with odor, but that is of course highly dependent on what else you’re using in the product. 

I have a strange feeling that lysolecithin is causing my face to flush slightly — not sure yet.

What have your experiences been so far?

[suswang8]

@Graillotion   Jeez.  I wish they were sold as a combo many months ago when I had been shopping around. 

@emma1985   I ended up getting an OCIS (plus Dremel), which I do like, in part because I really don’t see how you can use the Dynamic (with Blender Tool) for 100g without introducing a lot of air, but I’m glad (and a bit amazed ) you are able to pull it off.  I do feel like the Dynamic has a head that for some reason is extremely powerful/efficient — more so than the OCIS — perhaps mostly due to the size/shape.

[suswang8]

Good question, so bumping. 

Also, julia, what % of liquid lecithin were you planning on using?  It is regarded as being a very potent emulsifier, although I always had issues with stability after several days.     

[suswang8]

Also, pay close attention to the fact that bakuchi oil and bakuchiol are two different things/products.