Formulating

Color change even with sodium phytate; any recs?

Posted by suswang8 on December 29, 2020 at 9:03 pm

Hi, all.
Preparing for grenades/torpedos once I list my formula, but I am curious as to why the color has gone from a light/medium peachy beige (which I’m fine with) to almost medium tan in two weeks. I would have thought the sodium phytate would be enough to prevent this, but I thought wrong. . Thank you.

almond oil	6.00%
behenyl alcohol	0.28%
lecithin	1.38%
brewed green tea	78.50%
bakuchiol	1.10%
ethanol	3.30%
niacinamide	4.40%
green tea extract	1.10%
glycerin	2.20%
preservative	1.10%
sodium phytate	0.22%
xanthan gum	0.44%

suswang8 replied 2 years, 9 months ago 7 Members · 20 Replies

20 Replies

suswang8

Member
December 29, 2020 at 9:25 pm

(I forgot to note that, for the brewed green tea, I used water that had previously been boiled and then put through a “Zero” water filter, which I believe is roughly the equivalent of using deionized water.)
chemicalmatt

Member
December 30, 2020 at 9:09 pm

@suswang8 Phytic acid and its salts are not anti-oxidants, but chelating agents (and marvelous stabilizer/inhibitors for hydrogen peroxide I may add). You need an antioxidant Big Time or this stuff will eventually be puke grey.
suswang8

Member
December 30, 2020 at 10:28 pm

Interesting. i had thought color changes happened mostly from not having a chelator.

Do you suggest ye olde tocopherols?

I noticed today that the scent has started to change as well. It’s not bad, per se, but not as nice as it used to smell.
Cafe33

Member
December 31, 2020 at 11:53 pm

I use Tinogard TT by BASF for use to conserve the scent of my fragrance. It has worked particularly well, better than expected. I also use Tinogard TL as an antioxidant. Not sure how these fit in the “natural” story line.
Graillotion

Member
January 1, 2021 at 1:51 am

I use this (at 1%), and ROE of course in ever product. Works well.

DermaFix - Natural Skin Protection (ingredientstodiefor.com)
Graillotion

Member
January 1, 2021 at 2:38 am

I should add….due to the CoQ10….that is a very orange oil. But nothing Montanov 202 can’t whiten back up.
suswang8

Member
January 1, 2021 at 5:27 am

Thank you. And which specific component do you think is going rancid or discoloring? It is the brewed tea, I assume?

Andraous

Member

January 1, 2021 at 4:46 pm

suswang8 said:

Hi, all.
Preparing for grenades/torpedos once I list my formula, but I am curious as to why the color has gone from a light/medium peachy beige (which I’m fine with) to almost medium tan in two weeks. I would have thought the sodium phytate would be enough to prevent this, but I thought wrong. . Thank you.

almond oil 6.00%

behenyl alcohol 0.28%

lecithin 1.38%

brewed green tea 78.50%

bakuchiol 1.10%

ethanol 3.30%

niacinamide 4.40%

green tea extract 1.10%

glycerin 2.20%

preservative 1.10%

sodium phytate 0.22%

xanthan gum 0.44%

What is the preservative you are using?

suswang8

Member
January 1, 2021 at 6:17 pm

Spectrastat G2 Natural
Pharma

Member
January 2, 2021 at 3:44 pm

Several issues I see:

- Caprylhydroxamic acid (the main active, utterly non-natural ingredient in Spectrastat G2 Natural) is a potent complexing agent for zinc and copper and mainly acts through complexing said trace elements within microbes. Adding that much herbal extracts (green tea) will introduce considerable amounts of many different metal salts which will bind and inactivate caprylhydroxamate. Phytic acid is not strong enough to counteract this (no commercial chelate is though green tea polyphenols might partially help…) and hence, you are highly likely to have killed a good portion if not all of your main preservative. The little bit GMCY in your blend will not hold.

- Green tea contains different types of polyphenols. Many of which have a catechol unit or in other words are great chelates for iron and other metals (often stronger than phytic acid), oxidise readily (can’t be reduced by bakuchiol, the only antioxidant you use), and polymerise further to form dark pigments. What you need is a strong antioxidant and an airless, light-proof dispenser. At least add ascorbic acid or, less natural but more efficient, metabisulfite, dithionite, or similar. This will help more than trying to find an adequate chelate. BTW an antioxidant will turn iron into its +2 form which is a lot less of an issue regarding pro-oxidant effects.

- Lecithin plus high loads of herbal extracts are tough to preserve. I don’t think that discolouration is due to microbial growth rather than oxidation but I’d still be very wary about your preservative strategy even if you were to switch out caprylhydroxamic acid (something you should really consider doing).
suswang8

Member
January 3, 2021 at 7:41 am

Thank you. So you think I need to change both my preservative and add an antioxidant? And for antioxidant, you vote for using ascorbic acid, rather than tocopherols? (I thought ascorbic acid was notorious for oxidizing quickly and easily?). I do plan to add tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate eventually, but I did not want to waste money testing with this active before getting the other components right.

Pharma said:

Several issues I see:

- Caprylhydroxamic acid (the main active, utterly non-natural ingredient in Spectrastat G2 Natural) is a potent complexing agent for zinc and copper and mainly acts through complexing said trace elements within microbes. Adding that much herbal extracts (green tea) will introduce considerable amounts of many different metal salts which will bind and inactivate caprylhydroxamate. Phytic acid is not strong enough to counteract this (no commercial chelate is though green tea polyphenols might partially help…) and hence, you are highly likely to have killed a good portion if not all of your main preservative. The little bit GMCY in your blend will not hold.

- Green tea contains different types of polyphenols. Many of which have a catechol unit or in other words are great chelates for iron and other metals (often stronger than phytic acid), oxidise readily (can’t be reduced by bakuchiol, the only antioxidant you use), and polymerise further to form dark pigments. What you need is a strong antioxidant and an airless, light-proof dispenser. At least add ascorbic acid or, less natural but more efficient, metabisulfite, dithionite, or similar. This will help more than trying to find an adequate chelate. BTW an antioxidant will turn iron into its +2 form which is a lot less of an issue regarding pro-oxidant effects.

- Lecithin plus high loads of herbal extracts are tough to preserve. I don’t think that discolouration is due to microbial growth rather than oxidation but I’d still be very wary about your preservative strategy even if you were to switch out caprylhydroxamic acid (something you should really consider doing).
Pharma

Member
January 3, 2021 at 10:33 am

Ascorbic acid is a stronger antioxidant than tocopherol and other phenolics. If you want to protect these, go with ascorbic acid for water soluble compounds or ascorbyl palmitate for oil soluble ones. You can’t use tocopherol to protect an equally good or even better antioxidant.

Obviously, a good antioxidant reduces things and thereby gets oxidised. It does so when there is oxygen or other oxidising stuff around, that’s its job and the one reason why you add an antioxidant besides for skin benefits. Tocopherol does the same, it’s just not as easily visible and doesn’t react with oxygen as easily . The higher stability of tocopherol seems nice at first glance until you realise that it’s oxygen which messes with your colour and the green tea constituents…

As a side note: Tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate is not an antioxidant, it’s a precursor which is supposed to turn into one once assimilated by skin. It’s not supposed to do anything in and with a product but only with skin cells.
Graillotion

Member
January 3, 2021 at 8:40 pm

Pharma said:

Ascorbic acid is a stronger antioxidant than tocopherol and other phenolics. If you want to protect these, go with ascorbic acid for water soluble compounds or ascorbyl palmitate for oil soluble ones.

Good read @Pharma, as you know I have a super duper oxidation issue with one of me developments, and I will try it today with both ascorbic acid and ascorbyl palmitate. That way I working in both phases. I did make an observation a while back, which I was not able to scientifically metabolize, I have that antioxidant blend I use (costly) that contains ascorbyl palmitate, various forms of E etc. When I used that in one of the samples of said product, it seemed to have the most reduced oxidation. I thought it was just my imagination….but maybe I/we are on to something!
Thank You
Thota

Member
January 6, 2021 at 5:57 am

Wow @Pharma,
Such great inputs on antioxidants.
I have seen in many formulas Ascorbic added in small % and never realised that it is added for AO protection.
My question is,
Does it require a pH of around 3 for Ascorbic acid to protect the formula?

I do make a green tea face gel,
By making the extract in glycerin
100 Glycerin
100 water (ph 5)
Greentea 500
I let it infuse for 2-3 days and filter
And I use this extract at 5% to make my face gel with Xanthan. (PE 9010 preservative + 0.2% EDTA)

And I hate that it turns brown and eventually gray.
can addition of Ascorbic Acid help my gel to stay little lighter color and at what pH?
suswang8

Member
January 6, 2021 at 6:28 am

Also, @Pharma:

-1- Is it your gut instinct that it is the brewed tea solution that is more likely the culprit in my formula or the (powdered) green tea extract? I ask because I prepared a hair conditioner with 1pct green tea extract and it has held up…so far, at least.

-2- I thought ascorbic acid serums are notorious for oxidizing easily? I assume this issue is not relevant for someone like myself who just wants to add a small percentage (1%?) of it to a preparation?

Thank you.
suswang8

Member
July 16, 2021 at 3:21 am

Graillotion said:

Pharma said:

Ascorbic acid is a stronger antioxidant than tocopherol and other phenolics. If you want to protect these, go with ascorbic acid for water soluble compounds or ascorbyl palmitate for oil soluble ones.

Good read @Pharma, as you know I have a super duper oxidation issue with one of me developments, and I will try it today with both ascorbic acid and ascorbyl palmitate. That way I working in both phases. I did make an observation a while back, which I was not able to scientifically metabolize, I have that antioxidant blend I use (costly) that contains ascorbyl palmitate, various forms of E etc. When I used that in one of the samples of said product, it seemed to have the most reduced oxidation. I thought it was just my imagination….but maybe I/we are on to something!
Thank You

Flashback Thursday: @Graillotion, can we ask if you found success using ascorbic acid (and ascorbyl palmitate?) to prevent oxidation?
Pharma

Member
July 16, 2021 at 4:41 am

suswang8 said:

Also, @Pharma:

-1- Is it your gut instinct that it is the brewed tea solution that is more likely the culprit in my formula or the (powdered) green tea extract? I ask because I prepared a hair conditioner with 1pct green tea extract and it has held up…so far, at least.

-2- I thought ascorbic acid serums are notorious for oxidizing easily? I assume this issue is not relevant for someone like myself who just wants to add a small percentage (1%?) of it to a preparation?

Thank you.

Sorry, haven’t seen your comment earlier.

1. I don’t know what type of extract you use but I know that brewed tea is full of stuff which very easily oxidises.

2. Correct. This oxidation is nearly always there (due to oxygen in the product), it just becomes more visible in highe concentrations. In your case, you see about the same happen with green tea instead of ascorbic acid .
Graillotion

Member
July 16, 2021 at 5:29 am

suswang8 said:

Graillotion said:

Pharma said:

Ascorbic acid is a stronger antioxidant than tocopherol and other phenolics. If you want to protect these, go with ascorbic acid for water soluble compounds or ascorbyl palmitate for oil soluble ones.

Good read @Pharma, as you know I have a super duper oxidation issue with one of me developments, and I will try it today with both ascorbic acid and ascorbyl palmitate. That way I working in both phases. I did make an observation a while back, which I was not able to scientifically metabolize, I have that antioxidant blend I use (costly) that contains ascorbyl palmitate, various forms of E etc. When I used that in one of the samples of said product, it seemed to have the most reduced oxidation. I thought it was just my imagination….but maybe I/we are on to something!
Thank You

Flashback Thursday: @Graillotion, can we ask if you found success using ascorbic acid (and ascorbyl palmitate?) to prevent oxidation?

Hehehe….hardly a fair question… The product I was having issue with has Vanillin in it between 250 and 500 times typical levels. So we are not really discussing typical oxidation. So first…. Ascorbic acid and ascorbyl palmitate are proven antioxidants (and included in this product). So the issue is not do they work….they do. However, you probably meant….have I eliminated the oxidation. So let me say…this product also has Vitamin E, ROE, and Bisabolol as part of my standard antioxidant package, PLUS Sodium metabisulfite, PLUS Sodium thiosulfate. So more than your run of the mill antioxidant package.

Has all oxidation been removed? No….but after a 6 month hiatus I made the formula again this past week…and made a few additional tweaks. Even with airless light blocking containers, I still get a gradual color shift over 6 months. If I market this product…it will be done with a 6 month shelf life. So I’ll see if additional tweaks…make a difference.

Just for fun….I made the formula without the vanillin a year ago….filled a clear plastic bottle half full…and placed it in my sunniest window…..White as snow…a year later….so no doubt the mega dose of vanillin is the culprit. And before you ask….the product is completely ineffective…without the vanillin. (Which I knew going into this project…as I had tested myriads of natural alternatives prior to taking this on….and only the products with a good vanillin load worked for me.) How did the others make it not oxidise …you ask? Of course….they did not make an emulsion…hehehe…. Only I was dumb enough to try that.
Pharma

Member
July 16, 2021 at 8:43 pm

@Graillotion Degas your product prior to filling .
suswang8

Member
August 16, 2021 at 3:58 am

Hi, @Pharma.

I am making a slightly different product (in this case, an AHA/BHA toner), but encountering the same issue with tea extract discoloring in just days. I am keeping the product shielded from light, but I guess airless packaging is the only answer, or do you have another suggestion? Should 0.25% ascorbic acid be sufficient? Thank you.

66.6% brewed green tea (using de-ionized and freshly boiled water)
12% ethanol
5.6% glycolic acid
5.5% arginine
2% glycerin
2% butylene glycol
1.75% salicylic acid
0.85% sodium bicarbonate
0.65% citric acid
0.4% sodium phytate
0.25% ascorbic acid
pH 3.7
(no preservative added just yet as 12% ethanol and pH quite low, and only expecting 30 days shelf life for now)