[Robert]

Abdullah said:

I will start with 0.5%.
Decyl glucoside reduces viscosity.

I will add it at the end after everything else has been mixed.

I do not think decyl can reduce viscosity, it just not thicken enough so I suggest lauryl glucoside to give higher viscosity 

[Robert]

toketsu said:

Meemcha said:

Among my favorite ingredients are peptides, vit C (been playing with 3-0-ethyl ascorbic acid lately), ceramides and salicylic acid (not in a same product though). 

How do you like 3-O-ethyl ascorbic acid? I played a bit with it, it oxidized even quicker than plain ascorbic acid ((

I do not agree with you regards 3-O-ethyl ascorbic acid because it is the most stable structure of all other ascorbic acids,  but you should add anti-oxidant as well with it

[Robert]

ketchito said:

@Robert I agree with @Abdullah and @zetein. Find the right amount of PEG-120 that gibes viscosity but doesn’t gel. For instance, try with 1.5 or even 1%, if you still need some viscosity, inctease your Cocamide DEA. You could also do yourself a favor, and wliminate (or drastically reduce) Glycerin. No real benefit and it might be impairing your foam.

I think @Paprik is right, first sample confirm his comment, I will do more samples to be sure as well.

[Robert]

zetein said:

@Robert I’m sorry I meant more surfactant and more lower molecular thickeners. Betaine and glyceryl oleate and cocamide DEA are good and you can try increasing them to remedy the viscosity after decreasing peg-120.

Do you think SLES will not freez or gelled if I try it without adding Salt too much? how about HPMC use? can it solve the problem or it will precipitate 

[Robert]

Abdullah said:

Use less Peg-120.

@Paprik what was your problem with po65? 

I have no problem with it. 

i know peg-120 is the main problem but I thought there is alternative way to fix this, because no alternative to Peg-120 especially in super clear formulations, do you have any surfactant suggestion?

[Robert]

zetein said:

Do you mean the texture becomes gelatin-like when cold? You can try thicken with higher % surfactant, and lower molecular thickener (alkanolamides, amine oxides, betaine, propylene glycol laurate , etc), but less higher moleculars that crosslink micelles (peg-150 distearate, peg-120 glucose deoleate, peg-150 pentaerythrityl tetrastearate) and less salt.

Also there some water-soluble emollients can help with the gelatin issue, but I forget which.

yes exactly gelatin like texture especially when you rub it with your hands, I need very clear thick liquid soap, If I discarded Peg-120 and betain and Glyceryl oleate and cocamide DEA, how could I maintain high viscosity? I have not added Salt because it can blur a little the clearness of liquid. Do you have suggestion for Surfactant system can give super clear liquid and thickness.

[Robert]

Paprik said:

You would need to share your whole formula mate. 

I already cringe when I see coco glucoside as a “primary” surfactant. I personally do not like it much. 

By the “gelling” issue, you mean the whole product gels or just at the pump? Coco glucoside does this - it kind of dries and can block the pump where contact with air. 

Please share you full formula and method and we will be able to help you  

the whole product gelling not just in the pump, also you can see gelling when you rub it on your skin,

My formula as below:
Coco glucoside 55% active     10%  I use it here to avoid SLES gelling 
SLES 70% active                       2%
Betain 45 active                      2%
Cocamide DEA                         1%
peg-120  Deoleate                  2%
Glycerin                                   3%
Lamesoft PO65                         1%
And no salt Added because i need super clear liquid, very clear and thick liquid is the target formulation

[Robert]

chemicalmatt said:

The short answer here is: affirmative. All will emulsify dimethicone with limits on loading.  Better if you can add a PEGylated dimethicone as co-emulsifier. Better yet use the BETAC instead of CETAC for best result. I’ve found the behenyl quat combined with SPDMA/Lactic acid works best for emulsifying silicone oils. An aside: unless it is already part of a silicone gum blend ingredient in the formula, I’ve never understood why anyone would add D4/D5 cyclomethicone alone into a cream or lotion for topical use, or a hair conditioner. It does not do anything but evaporate; why it’s called “volatile silicone.” 

thank you for help, Regards Volatile oils use in creams I am using them to add slipp to hair conditioners besides they leave no residue on hair after application, I can consider them also as a solvent for other types of silicones

[Robert]

ketchito said:

@Robert You just need to check Dow’s and Momentive’s silicone catalogs, and check the emulsified ones to see what systems they use.

thank you I already checked them, most of them using Peg- as I see

[Robert]

ketchito said:

@Robert Did you make a sample,to see how it performs? I hope you’re using a good preservative system. For the backbone, I’d advise you to use Alfa olefin sulfonate instead of the glucoside (since it’s cheaper, you can use more and have a higher level of surfactant in your formula). Also, you could replace your PQ-7 by Guar HPTC at 0.15-0.2%, unless you’re making a clear shampoo. I wouldn’t use Cetrimonium chloride in this formula, but stick with a polymer.

performance is not bad actually, but regards olefine i faced viscosity problems so I used glucosides just because of the viscosity.. regards Polyquatrenium-7 it has lower build-up and better feel on hair when you have low surfactants percentage, 

[Robert]

ketchito said:

@Robert Did you check for products on the market to see how they do? Most biphasic comercial products have non polar emollients, water and inorganic salts. Inorganic salts (like chlorides and phosphates) are added as density balancing agents, to temporarily create a mixture once you shake the bottle, and delay phase separation. 

Cetrimonium chloride being water soluble, will try to emulsify part of your silicones, and bring that to the water phase (that’s why you don’t have a clear water phase). If you want to add an emulsifier to delay phase separation even further, choose one that has same affinity for both phases  and at very low level (let’s say at 0.05% total active matter).

as @Abdullah mentioned the target product should be unstable emulsion base and it will give creaming after couple of hours, the market has some products and they include high percnetage of silicons and there is an emulsifier also, for transparent liquid I think surfactant like betaine can do somthing here but there will be unwanted foam and do not know if it will be ok as leave-in ingredient

[Robert]

Abdullah said:

What you want to make is an unstable emulsion that do creaming after 4 hours. 

I would say remove NACL or add higher amount to make it more unstable. 

Or use spdma instead of Cetrimonium chloride at higher pH and it will separate more easily. 

thats right, what is SPDMA?

[Robert]

ketchito said:

@Robert You could solve the issue if you remove Cetrimonium chloride, but I don’t think i’d hold for 4-5h till separation. You could try increasing your salt (you could even add some phosphates) and adding some ethanol. 

If I removed Cetrimonium chloride i can not got an emulsion phase upside, it will separate immediately to oil phase and liquid phase.
Regards phosphate why should I add it?
I tried Ethanol and it has not work, 

[Robert]

very simple formula:
cyclopentasiloxane 15%
Dimethicone 1%
Cetrimonium chloride 1%
water to 100
Salt 0.25%

I tried many formulas but never give the lotion phase and transparent phase.
this is a leave-in hair conditioning formulation by the way.
target product should take 4 or 5 hours to start separation and separation should be transparent from the beginning no place for blurred phase.

any one can help it will be very appreciated @Pharma @PhilGeis

[Robert]

Dear friends, I mention a specific cause as a general formula, meaning I exclude all other ingredients to be the problem so as a general formulation have optimum ingredients could an extra emulsifiers cause something like this?  I will add another question in the same way, Could an extra emulsifier decrease absorbance of the cream from skin? it will make it take more time to be absorbed ,,  I hope that I made my point Clear! @Graillotion @ketchito

[Robert]

PhilGeis said:

To pharma’s excellent post - I’ve limited experience with phytic acid, esp. titrating levels.  It does work.  Agree re. cap hydroxamic acid - like pyrithione (ZPT - another hydroxamic acid) it might have some efficacy vs fungi but nothing for bacteria.
Chelate free systems do work - my experience in these includes ironically antidandruff ZPT products (EDTA screws up ZPT), products with some physical aspect (gels) and shampoos that added divalent cations for foam characteristic.  
I try to design the best system and my bias in that is always EDTA.

you mean even some products have zinc oxide can be interrupted by EDTA?
Also on the same issue we can not add EDTA in selenium Disulfide Antidandruff shampoo? 

[Robert]

Pharma said:

Robert said:

Regard Azelaic acid do you think suspended particles will be effective, I tried glycols to dissolve and then add it to the cream base but always same results grainy and sandy cream

Skinoren, a pharmaceutical product, contains micronized azelaic acid and they showed skin resorption… a not so great one, honestly… Anyway, micronized particles do slowly dissolve on skin, then penetrate skin leaving the solvent ’empty’ and ready to dissolve some more crystals and so on. To obtain such sink conditions, the trick is to have an okayish solubility in the carrier (cream/gel) but keep it lower than solubility in skin . Alternatively, use a solvent which penetrates skin easily but that will require the use of an excess activce and result in lots of active ingredient remaining on skin (likely the case with Skinoren).

Thank you I appreciate your comment a lot, I am already using micronized pure Azailic acid from Corum, I mix 10% butylene glycol with 10% Azailic acid and disperse it in a cream base, I hope it can give reasonable effect 

[Robert]

Pharma said:

Phytate is a polyelectrolyte, worse than citric acid (theoretical 12 negative charges!). GLDA and EDTA just carry up to four… still, if you’re encountering issues with salting out effects try using ingredients with a low amount of trace metals so you can safely use the bare minimum of a chelate. As alternatives, caprylyl hydroxymic acid might work (personally, I don’t trust that guy) and, theoretically, nordihydroguaiaretic acid might too. Depending on the ingredients and the overall preservative system, you might get away without using any chelates at all. Maybe @PhilGeis has some experience with atypical and/or nonionic/monoionic chelates?

Regarding azelaic acid: if it isn’t micronised, then a suspension will easily feel sandy/grainy (and possibly irritating where there are too large crystals sitting and dissolving on the skin). Heating can speed up dissolution but you should only add as much azelaic acid as your system can dissolve at room temp (better even slightly below that), else it will always crystallise out once cooled down (because solubility of it increases with increasing temperature and vice versa). Also, recrystallisation will easily lead to even larger crystal needles than before.

50°F? Are you an Inuit? Cause for all others, 50°F (=10°C) isn’t considered heating but cooling :smiley: !

To my current knowledge and experience, azelaic acid can not be properly dissolved in anything acceptable at an effective concentration unless you want to go anhydrous and/or gooey/sticky. You’ll likely have to come to terms with a life full of compromises.

As mentioned in another thread on salicylic acid, neutralising such an acid will render it water soluble but also utterly useless and ineffective (though you can still claim ‘contains XYZ%’).

Regard Azelaic acid do you think suspended particles will be effective, I tried glycols to dissolve and then add it to the cream base but always same results grainy and sandy cream

[Robert]

I have the same problem, I solubilize it at proylen glycol with heating and it turns transparent liquid and include it in cream but after cooling the day later it recrystalized again, should we just suspend the powder in creams? by this way I am not sure it will be effective on skin

[Robert]

ketchito said:

@Robert It seems there is a problem with your emulsifying system, but it’d be better if you write down your formula.

it is a general problem there is no specific formula 

[Robert]

@Abdullah @ketchito 
Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
Also 1501 will definitely separated, 
as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failed

waiting any suggestion

[Robert]

as I mention in my reply above Can we consider it as a new form of emulsion combining performance of w/o and stability of o/w?

[Robert]

thank you for the detailed answer, it is really helpful. lets discuss this point if I consider adding more than 2% of fatty alcohol and adding very little amount of like a tween in a very little percentage besides high percentages of low HLB emulsifiers of w/o I think we will get something very similar to w/o cream in performance and more stable as o/w emulsion but you can consider it a new type as a mixed emulsion, do you agree with me in this point?!🙂

[Robert]

yes I mean water in oil,