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  • Repair Shampoo

    Posted by Ehsaale on July 30, 2022 at 12:24 am

    Hi All

    i am formulating a sulfate free silicone free shampoo for for extremely damaged hair .. I getting a very nice shampoo with great sensory feel BUT feel
    like getting some fizz 

    Below is the formula  (w/w

    water balance 
    aculyn 28 - 5%

    Mirataine BET C-30 —— 25%
    Miranol Ultra C-32 — 20%

    Hostapon SG —- 10%
    Tilamar Quat 2240 
    DL Panthenol 75L
    Phytantriol 
    Calcium D Panthetonate 
    Pentavitin
    hydrolized Soy Protein 
    — total to around 2%
    Guar 0.5% (in Glycerine 3%)

    euperlan AP3000 - 6%

    perfume 1% in Eumelgen 2.4%

    Preservative 0.8%
    Dow 1501 Silicone 4%
    Antil 171 to thicken 2.5%
    Ph down to 4.5
    Getting great foam and great sensory feel but with all these conditioning agents still getting some frizz in hair and lacking in shine 

    is this the surfactant package ?

    drjayseesunish replied 5 months, 1 week ago 4 Members · 23 Replies
  • 23 Replies
  • drjayseesunish

    Member
    August 30, 2022 at 2:21 pm

    ketchito said:

    ketchito said:

    Robert said:

    @Abdullah @ketchito 
    Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
    Also 1501 will definitely separated, 
    as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failed

    waiting any suggestion

    @Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want. 

    @ketchito playing percentages meaning repetitive experimentation, am I right? But can’t understand you all are well known formulator so is it difficult for you too to fix one’s %?

    @ketchito please tell me a universal polymers to thicken  cleaning products? 

    HEC and HMPC are good options.

    @ketchito Thanks! After comparing HECand CMC, I came to know CMC sodium salt is good option as soluble in hot and cold medium easily but it didn’t give much thickening to my liquid detergent as I expected. 

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 30, 2022 at 12:33 pm

    ketchito said:

    Robert said:

    @Abdullah @ketchito 
    Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
    Also 1501 will definitely separated, 
    as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failed

    waiting any suggestion

    @Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want. 

    @ketchito playing percentages meaning repetitive experimentation, am I right? But can’t understand you all are well known formulator so is it difficult for you too to fix one’s %?

    @ketchito please tell me a universal polymers to thicken  cleaning products? 

    HEC and HMPC are good options.

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 30, 2022 at 12:33 pm

    ketchito said:

    Robert said:

    @Abdullah @ketchito 
    Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
    Also 1501 will definitely separated, 
    as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failed

    waiting any suggestion

    @Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want. 

    @ketchito playing percentages meaning repetitive experimentation, am I right? But can’t understand you all are well known formulator so is it difficult for you too to fix one’s %?

    @drjayseesunish Those levels will depend on your consumer needs, silicones you’re using, etc. That’s why there’s not a fixed amount. You could start for instance, with 0.2% of Cationic guar, and 1% of dimethicone fluid (350 or 1000 cst). This is just a starting point, those levels could be incteased, you could choose to add a silicone gum, replace the cationic polymer, etc. You’ll also need to add a suspending agent like a carbomer. 

  • drjayseesunish

    Member
    August 29, 2022 at 1:03 pm

    ketchito said:

    Robert said:

    @Abdullah @ketchito 
    Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
    Also 1501 will definitely separated, 
    as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failed

    waiting any suggestion

    @Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want. 

    @ketchito playing percentages meaning repetitive experimentation, am I right? But can’t understand you all are well known formulator so is it difficult for you too to fix one’s %?

    @ketchito please tell me a universal polymers to thicken  cleaning products? 

  • drjayseesunish

    Member
    August 29, 2022 at 1:01 pm

    ketchito said:

    Robert said:

    @Abdullah @ketchito 
    Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
    Also 1501 will definitely separated, 
    as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failed

    waiting any suggestion

    @Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want. 

    @ketchito playing percentages meaning repetitive experimentation, am I right? But can’t understand you all are well known formulator so is it difficult for you too to fix one’s %?

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 29, 2022 at 11:58 am

    Robert said:

    @Abdullah @ketchito 
    Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
    Also 1501 will definitely separated, 
    as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failed

    waiting any suggestion

    @Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want. 

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 28, 2022 at 4:16 pm

    Robert said:

    @Abdullah @ketchito 
    Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
    Also 1501 will definitely separated, 
    as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failed

    waiting any suggestion

    I don’t think so

  • Robert

    Member
    August 28, 2022 at 10:20 am

    @Abdullah @ketchito 
    Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
    Also 1501 will definitely separated, 
    as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failed

    waiting any suggestion

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 16, 2022 at 12:38 am

    ketchito said:

    Abdullah said:

    @ketchito in the ulprospector Link, what is your opinion about these two

    Other factors that effect deposition

    1. Coacervate rheology
    is it the actual product viscosity or product viscosity during shampooing when coacervate is formed? 

    2. Electrolytes reduce the amount of coacervate.
    doesnt it mean reduced deposition? 

    1) that’s a good question; I believe it’s products viscosity, since, if the product is too viscous, it’d be hard to dilute it so coacervate is formed before you rinsed-off the product

    So higher product viscosity is better to form coacervate, correct? 

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 15, 2022 at 12:34 pm

    Abdullah said:

    @ketchito in the ulprospector Link, what is your opinion about these two

    Other factors that effect deposition

    1. Coacervate rheology
    is it the actual product viscosity or product viscosity during shampooing when coacervate is formed? 

    2. Electrolytes reduce the amount of coacervate.
    doesnt it mean reduced deposition? 

    1) that’s a good question; I believe it’s products viscosity, since, if the product is too viscous, it’d be hard to dilute it so coacervate is formed before you rinsed-off the product

    2) both, ’cause if you reduce the amount of coacervate formed (electrolytes interfere with anionic surfactant-cationic polymer electrostatic interaction), then there’s less coacervate being deposited

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 12, 2022 at 4:12 pm

    @ketchito in the ulprospector Link, what is your opinion about these two

    Other factors that effect deposition

    1. Coacervate rheology
    is it the actual product viscosity or product viscosity during shampooing when coacervate is formed? 

    2. Electrolytes reduce the amount of coacervate.
    doesnt it mean reduced deposition? 

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 12, 2022 at 3:28 pm

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah You can actually start with this book: Principles of Polymer Science and Technology in Cosmetics and Personal Care.

    ULprospector also has an article about it (although only related to coacervates): https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/638/pcc-understanding-deposition-rinse-products/

    Now, here are some interestin papers (the first ons is my favorite on the topic):

    1) http://www.scientificspectator.com/documents/surfactant%20spectator/surfactant%20interaction/2006%20Coacervate.pdf
    2) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9292326/
    3) https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jos/68/6/68_ess19081/_pdf
     

    Thanks a lot 

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 11, 2022 at 1:57 pm

    @Abdullah You can actually start with this book: Principles of Polymer Science and Technology in Cosmetics and Personal Care.

    ULprospector also has an article about it (although only related to coacervates): https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/638/pcc-understanding-deposition-rinse-products/

    Now, here are some interestin papers (the first ons is my favorite on the topic):

    1) http://www.scientificspectator.com/documents/surfactant%20spectator/surfactant%20interaction/2006%20Coacervate.pdf
    2) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9292326/
    3) https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jos/68/6/68_ess19081/_pdf
     

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 10, 2022 at 4:53 pm

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah I recommendo you to search and download papers on the matter. There are plenty, from the Journal of Cosmetic Science, Langmuir, el Journal of detergents and surfactants, Polymers, etc. Try searching through Google Scholar.

    I did a lot of research but couldn’t find any. 

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 9, 2022 at 12:02 pm

    @Abdullah I recommendo you to search and download papers on the matter. There are plenty, from the Journal of Cosmetic Science, Langmuir, el Journal of detergents and surfactants, Polymers, etc. Try searching through Google Scholar.

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 9, 2022 at 11:45 am

    @ketchito can you tell me where can i learn more about interactions of NACL vs polymers? 

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 4, 2022 at 3:21 pm

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah If PQ-10 have deposited as a coacervate, NaCl would help remove it in the next wash, although not as much as if PQ-10 had deposited alone. 

    By desorption, yes…I meant from hair, once the polymer had already deposited.

    Thanks 👍

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 4, 2022 at 12:26 pm

    @Abdullah If PQ-10 have deposited as a coacervate, NaCl would help remove it in the next wash, although not as much as if PQ-10 had deposited alone. 

    By desorption, yes…I meant from hair, once the polymer had already deposited.

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 3, 2022 at 12:23 pm

    @ketchito my shampoos has SLES/CAPB at 3:1 and 7:1 ratios. So it may have coacervate. I use 5% nacl

    By desorption, do you mean removing polymer that is already attached to hair from previous shampoo with cationic guar?

    Also how does NACL effect PQ10 in shampoo with SLES/CAPB in above ratios? 

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 3, 2022 at 12:15 pm

    @Abdullah It depends. If the cationic polymer adrosbs in its pure state (no coacervate), then salt might reduce its deposition. But if you have a coacervate, salt might actually increase it.

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 3, 2022 at 12:27 am

    @ketchito thanks 
    Does is reduce adsorption from Shampoo too or no effect on that? 

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 2, 2022 at 12:24 pm

    @Abdullah NaCl as well as orher electrolytes help control the adsorption/desorption of ionic substabces on hair. In the case of Guar HPTC, it helps with the desorption, making it easier for surfactants to remove most of it.

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 1, 2022 at 2:39 pm

    @ketchito how does NACL effect cationic guar in a Shampoo with SLES/CAPB? 

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 1, 2022 at 2:28 pm

    @Ehsaale Personally, I don’t like much the type of foam that Betaine gives without an anionic. I’d still add an anionic like a sulfonate, taurate or sulfosuccinate. 

    Guar HPTC could be a bit too much at 0.5%, not only because of excessive deposition (if you don’t have an anionic, Betaine won’t be able to remove too much of the Guar deposited, especially in the absence of sodium chloride….and also, you could have an issue with gelling over time). Be sure to fully hydrate your Guar HPTC lowering down the pH and mixing for enough time.

    Btw, I see in your formula DC 1501, but you mention it’s a silicone free shampoo. Did I get something wrong? If you want to put a silicone, DC 1501 won’t be my first choice, since most of the ingredient (which is Cyclopentasiloxane) would be rinsed away. 

    What’s your preservative?