[Paprik]

I’m in NZ. I think we follow EU regulations in this matter.

I know how to make an ingredient list, I just got surprised, that there are some ingredients, where they don’t list individual input. So wanted to know how to deal with it. (For my study, I had to do IL, but they supply me with all info needed).

Ok, I will list it as is and on the correct % place. 

Thanks!  

[Paprik]

Thank you guys @Microformulation and @Graillotion. 
No problem with finding the INCI names, but the percentage of each component is the issue.
They don’t even provide the range, that would be good enough. 

This a section 3 of SDS:

Or how would do proceed with creating ingredient list without this kind of information? [And still comply with regulations?]

[Paprik]

You will need to use gum a polymer to thicken your product then. I don’t think there is another solution, unless you are really lucky with the pH (perfect combination of surfactants).

[Paprik]

emma1985 said:

raiyana said:

I dont make lipsticks, but i do make diy cleansing balms and cleansing oil for my friends and family. Water free formula.

I used to have issues like this but now my cleansing balms dont go rancid as fast. The one i made 2 years ago still smell okay.

What i did, i changed most of my plant oils to synthetic ingredients. The products mostly made of:
Caprylic capric triglyceride
Mineral oil
C12-15 Alkyl benzoate
Isododecane
Some sunflower oil and castor oil
Other plant oils (i limit to 1% max)
BHT as antioxadant at 0.1%
Fragrance and essential oils (max 0.05%)
For natural wax, i only use white beeswax

I dont use preservatives as long as the product is kept away from water and stored properly (not in the bathroom!) Never had any mold. But my “clients” are just friends and family and i always remind them to keep the products dry.

Not to derail the discussion, but I’m wondering if you have any issues with syneresis? (Precipitation of oils due to non-compatible polarity.) I ask because isododecane is highly non-polar, whereas some of your other ingredients are polar (like sunflower seed oil.)

I’ve recently started experimenting with Rice Bran Wax as it is said to prevent syneresis, and it’s going well so far!

I’m interested in trying microcrystalline wax as well, right now I’m using emulsifying waxes, Rice Bran Wax, Cetyl Alcohol and Stearic Acid. Are you happy with the microcrystalline wax?

ETA. Sorry, I see someone already asked about syneresis LoL. Ignore.

I would actually like to have an answer for this So good you asked too!  

[Paprik]

CAPB is usually around 30% dilution. The rest is water with possible preservative … That’s what @ngarayeva001 meant by “as supplied”.

If you add 2% into formula, you’ll have 0.6% of actual CAPB in finish product. Do you think it’s enough to create a foam?  

[Paprik]

I actually think Sepimax ZEN will work. It is really electrolytes resistant, you can do nearly anything to it and it works. It is really easy material to work with, foolproof.
The only way to ho test it out tho is to try it. Good luck, let us know

[Paprik]

Nice sum from @ngarayeva001. I’m for HA too. It gives you also space for claims and performance. 
Or really nice grade of XG, however .. yeah, it’s just XG. Leave this one for stabilising

[I’m using 0.4% of low MW HA and it gives really serum like consistency and slip. Too much slip to my liking ]

[Paprik]

Hi,
 
no, it shouldn’t. pH higher than 10 and lower than 3 is self-preserving.

[Paprik]

This is not only based on pH. 
Taurates should be easily thickened by salt. I don’t see any NaCl in your formula. ? 

What you’re trying to reach, is different type/shape of micelles. You are basically reducing the head group size, so it can form cylindrical shape. Those can tangle when mixed and this is what’s building viscosity. 

Start to add salt in 0.3-0.5% increments, mix thoroughly and see what’s happening. Once you reach your desired viscosity, stop adding salt, record the amount and re-do the sample with updated formula. (If you would add too much salt, micelles could turn into bilayer and this would turn your product water thin again) 

Hope that helps.

[Paprik]

Also, add the tocopherol right before pouring it. 
Meaning, heat all ingredients, melt everything and wait as long as you can, so the temperature drops, add Toco, mix and pour. 

Let us know how it goes. 
Do you have an incubator or something? That you could do accelerated testing? 

[Paprik]

You would need to conduct some testing to find out. 
You are adding 50% actual Tocopherol, I would definitely try to add 1% of actual Tocopherol, therefore 2% of T-50. And see how it goes.  

[Paprik]

raiyana said:

I dont make lipsticks, but i do make diy cleansing balms and cleansing oil for my friends and family. Water free formula.

I used to have issues like this but now my cleansing balms dont go rancid as fast. The one i made 2 years ago still smell okay.

What i did, i changed most of my plant oils to synthetic ingredients. The products mostly made of:
Caprylic capric triglyceride
Mineral oil
C12-15 Alkyl benzoate
Isododecane
Some sunflower oil and castor oil
Other plant oils (i limit to 1% max)
BHT as antioxadant at 0.1%
Fragrance and essential oils (max 0.05%)
For natural wax, i only use white beeswax

I dont use preservatives as long as the product is kept away from water and stored properly (not in the bathroom!) Never had any mold. But my “clients” are just friends and family and i always remind them to keep the products dry.

Are you having problems with syneresis? Looking at your oils, you’re mixing polar and non-polar lipids? 

[Paprik]

Cinema said:

saraahsan said:

Cinema said:

I am not into lipsticks and all- but just a thought- maybe switch oils / butters to the kind with a longer shelf life maybe or replace aome with eaters- along with all the other maneuvers 

i am adding castor oil plus caprylic capric 

castor oil has a shorter shelf life that most of plant butters- most of them being in the 2 years range as acompared to 1 year for the castor oil- 2 years if hydrogenated- other options are softisan 378 (fantastic for lipsticks) has a shelf life of 3 years and is soft solid at room temp

What do you mean by “shelf life”? Before going rancid? Actually Castor oil is one of the most stable oils. Together with Jojoba (which is a wax actually) and Coconut oil. It has very good oxidative stability. 

[Paprik]

Hello,

I believe it can. However you need to check regulatory limits. 
If I remember correctly, in EU it’s 0.05% for body products and 0.1% (or 0.3%) for hands, face and rinse off products. 
Talking about Retinol, Retinyl Acetate abd Retinyl Palmitate.

[Paprik]

For me a). Micelles are formed in the finished product. 

[The shape of the micelle depends on the size of the head (and the tail type). (Spherical, cylindrical, etd … )]

[Paprik]

How much of the Tocopherol are using? And what type? 
I believe it’s a hot fill/pour, which will already oxidase some of the vit E, so you need to increase the input. 

Please share the formula so we can take a look properly. 

[Paprik]

Abdullah said:

@Paprik the gum doesn’t mix correctly in surfactant solutions as i have experienced. 

Do you slurry the gum prior to adding it into the surfactant solution?

[Paprik]

You should be hydrating your gum with all available water from the formula, otherwise you’re risking separating. Meaning, if you hydrate the guar gum with water and add surfactants (which also contain water) after, the water won’t necessary combine with the already hydrated guar gum. 
So you should combine all surfactants, add water, mix it and add your gum afterwards. So the gum has all the water and can thicken the whole phase. 

[Paprik]

Hi, 

could you maybe share a method? I have no experience with this one, but looking at a sample recipe from MakingCosmetics, they used 4% for 12% lipid and also thickener 3%. I don’t think HEC is giving a stringy texture (especially at 0.5%), or at least I don’t recall it from my experiments with it. 

Also one more thing, in my opinion, the Essential oils input is too high. If it’s a body lotion, stick to 1.5% maximum, for face 0.5%. Also check regulatory limits for individual oils. 

[Paprik]

In my opinion, it’s just easier to control the input and if it’s 50% solution, it’s easier to mix it thru.
In other words, you would need to wait for the powder to dissolve and mix thru properly and a bit of it could make a big change in pH.
Adding drop by drop gives you more control. 

Maybe someone will have more science-like answer

[Paprik]

Hello,

I would use Liquid Germall Plus as a preservative. It’s effective from pH 3 - 8, so if you would land on 3.5 after adding LAA you should be fine even if it moves over time.. 

In my opinion, you have a little bit too much Vit E. To solubilize 1% properly, you would probably need much more of Polysorbate 80. 
Even if you add Vit E and Ferulic Acid, the serum won’t last ages. You’ll get maybe a month more? I mean, if you will make 30 grams batches, for me there’s not point of adding those ingredients. Stick with water, humectant, LAA, gelling agent (HA is great), chelating agent and preservative. My serum lasts around a month before turning pale yellow. I’m usually done with it by then anyway. 
And my customers are buying my LAA serum maybe every 1.5 - 2 months. 
(I put a warning on the packaging regarding oxidation and expiration date).

Hope that helps.  

[Paprik]

Can you share the method? 

(Have you neutralized the HEC? What is the final pH?)

[Paprik]

Hey,

this cream looks alright, not sure why you want to add so many actives?
CoQ10 is already there, HA, B5, Vit E acetate (antioxidant for your skin) …
I mean, if you add 0.025% or even 0.5% (which I think you could, if you were using tretinoin for that long), I think you should be fine, preservation-wise. Not sure about compatibility with other ingredients. You would have to do some testing. 

Sometimes less it more. Or make batches and use some actives in the morning and some at night.

This cream is using Euxyl 9010 as one of the preservation. You could calculate how much you dilute it and top up maybe? 1% limit. 
Not promising it will work tho. 

Good luck! 

PS. Send me some tretinoin  

[Paprik]

jemolian said:

Speaking about cooking, this kills me

Comments from the natural FB groups always does, so…

Oh **** This cracked me up !!!  
Pinch of EDTA Ninicidmide Omg I caaan’t  

[Paprik]

EVchem said:

Xanthan does not have great sensorial but if you are going to keep it you can always try adding it before surfactants go in. Sometimes I wonder if the gum doesn’t hydrate properly when surfactants are already in the water

I would not recommend this. XG needs all the available water to hydrate. If you gonna hydrate it only with water from “water phase” and not with the water from surfactants, this can and probably will cause separation.