Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating New Emulsifier or need for thickeners - help!!

  • New Emulsifier or need for thickeners - help!!

    Posted by Cinema on June 9, 2021 at 6:36 pm

    I am new to the forum and an amateur formulator - however have been reading and learning and experimenting for the past 9 months now. My forte is naturally derived ( as much as possible) and herbal formulations, So I wanted to try to make a pourable/ pumpable lotion and for the same- tried out Cream maker fluid ( Inci name - Sorbitan laurate, polyglyceryl-4 laurate, dilauryl citrate ) for the same.
    Basic formulation

    OIls ( coconut, babassu, MCT and apricot kernel)- 12%
    Aloe gel- 5%
    DW- 72%
    Glycerin -3 %
    Cetyl alcohol- 0.5
    Cream maker fluid- 3.5%
    Vtamin E - 1%
    Essential oils- 2%
    Optiphen plus- 1%
     
               But my emulsion -although came together but separated quickly. The formulation guide is to use 1.5-2.5% cream maker fluid - but I used more than that. Then I added HEC at 0.5, increased cetyl alcohol to 2% and Cream maker fluid to 6%- and of course adjust water accordingly.  The rsults still the same but my lotion now had stringy texture ( thanks to HEC) and waxy feel ( large amount of emulsifier I guess). 
             I guess I do need a natural polymer if possible like konjac or alginate for my water phase and an oil thickener too- like some out there are sapogel, sucragel, dermofeel viscolid or bio Jelly- all new to me. 
              Thoughts from you experts ? And experiences with Cream maker fluid?

    Cinema replied 2 years, 8 months ago 6 Members · 43 Replies
  • 43 Replies
  • paprik

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 7:06 pm

    Hi, 

    could you maybe share a method? I have no experience with this one, but looking at a sample recipe from MakingCosmetics, they used 4% for 12% lipid and also thickener 3%. I don’t think HEC is giving a stringy texture (especially at 0.5%), or at least I don’t recall it from my experiments with it. 

    Also one more thing, in my opinion, the Essential oils input is too high. If it’s a body lotion, stick to 1.5% maximum, for face 0.5%. Also check regulatory limits for individual oils. 

  • Cinema

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 7:29 pm

    @parik, thanks for the quick reply. So this was supposed to be a cold process but since I was to use cetyl alcohol( had to use some form of thickener -and i had this or stearic acid)- I made it a hot process. Heated oil and water phases separately. kept the preservative and EO till cool down phase. Used a stick blender to mix oil into water phase. Let it cool while intermittently mixing and then added the cool down ingredients. Second time, when I used the HEC- I hydrated it first with water phase- rest the same. 

  • graillotion

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 7:29 pm

    As mentioned above….please describe the equipment used to make the emulsion.

    Are you set on the above listed emulsifier?  There are some very proven ones available to you.  The one pasted below….is essentially bullet proof, and Widely used:

    CreamMaker® BLEND-EMF-EMBL-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

    And yes…the EO’s will scent the product at .5%, unless you were trying to make a mosquito repellent.

  • Cinema

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 7:30 pm

    @ paprik- what do you mean by regulatory limits for oils?

  • Cinema

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 7:34 pm

    @Graillotion- thanks for the input but was trying to stay away from PEG compounds. I have made good lotions/ face creams with ritamulse, Gel maker NAT, Olivem 900, BTMS 25 even E wax in the past- but my lotions always are more in the consistency of creamy texture- like good for tubes but likely not thin enough for a bottle- this emulsifier claimed to be excellent for thin lotions and milks- and hence I went with it. 

  • graillotion

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 7:43 pm

    Usually….too much viscosity means….too much emulsifier / thickeners.  In your case….probably too much emulsifier.

    Have you looked at Montanov L or 202?  (I think meets the natural standard you are looking for.  Should be co-emulsified with GSC.)

  • graillotion

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 7:51 pm

    Regarding limits on EO’s….

    Maybe take a look at this:

    https://ifrafragrance.org/safe-use/introduction#.WVKbToqQymU

    Some EO’s are NOT well tolerated on skin.

  • Cinema

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 7:55 pm

    @Grailotion, so I was looking up these new ingredients and Montanov L looks really great ( and cheaper than 202)- maybe next to try if all else fails. What is CSC btw?

  • Cinema

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 8:01 pm

    Regarding limits on EO’s….

    Maybe take a look at this:

    https://ifrafragrance.org/safe-use/introduction#.WVKbToqQymU

    Some EO’s are NOT well tolerated on skin.

    Got it thanks, will do. What is CSC btw as you mentioned in the previous comment

  • graillotion

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 8:08 pm

    Cinema said:

    Got it thanks, will do. What is CSC btw as you mentioned in the previous comment

    GSC is this:

    Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

    It is an anionic emulsifier that really helps the Montanov’s.  Do not believe the mfg claims about being stable on their own….they all say that…and usually this is not a reality.  (As I can attest.)

  • graillotion

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 8:12 pm

    Don’t overlook M 202.  I make a face cream with it….Heaven in a jar.
    I think LC has if for a lot less.

    But I think easier to make thinner products with L….as it does not thicken as well as 202.

  • Cinema

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 8:41 pm

    Don’t overlook M 202.  I make a face cream with it….Heaven in a jar.
    I think LC has if for a lot less.

    But I think easier to make thinner products with L….as it does not thicken as well as 202.

    Cinema said:

    Got it thanks, will do. What is CSC btw as you mentioned in the previous comment

    GSC is this:

    Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

    It is an anionic emulsifier that really helps the Montanov’s.  Do not believe the mfg claims about being stable on their own….they all say that…and usually this is not a reality.  (As I can attest.)

    Thanks for the info. Done and done- will try it for sure.
    Tagging a few of the chemists on this forum to see if anyone has used Cream maker fluid before and has any suggestions? @Perry @Bobzchemist

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 10:10 pm

    As natural as possible.. What is aloe gel made of?

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 10:12 pm
  • Cinema

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 10:59 pm

    As natural as possible.. What is aloe gel made of?

    I am using Purador’s organic
    aloe gel- I did not see anything bad in the ingredients- is there usually something bad in these?

  • Cinema

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 10:59 pm
  • graillotion

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 1:21 am

    Cinema said:

    As natural as possible.. What is aloe gel made of?

    I am using Purador’s organic
    aloe gel- I did not see anything bad in the ingredients- is there usually something bad in these?

    Ahh….starting to give us facts we can use ….
    If it is the one I found on the net….it is loaded with crap…including cationic ingredients…which would cause some incompatabilities.

    Make the formula without the Aloe gel…and I think all problems will …. POOF!

  • graillotion

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 1:26 am

    BTW….if you must formulate with aloe….MAKE your OWN!

    https://www.makeyourown.buzz/aloe-vera-leaf-powder-100x/

    Aloe brings numerous problems to formulating….find another claim ingredient.

  • pattsi

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 1:42 am

    I think TEGO® Care LTP don’t tolerate E’lyte well, have you try knock Aloe gel out yet?

  • Cinema

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 2:04 am

    Cinema said:

    As natural as possible.. What is aloe gel made of?

    I am using Purador’s organic
    aloe gel- I did not see anything bad in the ingredients- is there usually something bad in these?

    Ahh….starting to give us facts we can use ….
    If it is the one I found on the net….it is loaded with crap…including cationic ingredients…which would cause some incompatabilities.

    Make the formula without the Aloe gel…and I think all problems will …. POOF!

    OK sounds good-will try 

  • Cinema

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 2:07 am

    @ Graillotion- I did not know you could make your own aloe gel- will def try.

    I thought only aloe juice caused issued- aloe gel never gave me problems before
  • graillotion

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 2:09 am

    Aloe gel…is only aloe juice that has been thickened.

    Look at the product you were using….Aloe juice was the first ingredient…then thickeners.

  • Cinema

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 2:12 am

    Aloe gel…is only aloe juice that has been thickened.

    Look at the product you were using….Aloe juice was the first ingredient…then thickeners.

    I clicked on the link but only got a link to aloe leaf powder buying site- is there a place where I can learn how to make my own aloe gel
    Also @ Pattsi- thanks I just realized Tego Care LTP is the other name for the Cream maker fluid- and I guess I am getting close to thinking the aloe might be the problem

  • Cinema

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 2:14 am

    Thank you all … I am hopeful that I don’t have to give up on my new found emulsifier!! - Excited for another trial batch tomorrow then!!

  • graillotion

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 2:16 am

    Cinema said:

    @ Graillotion- I did not know you could make your own aloe gel- will def try.

    I thought only aloe juice caused issued- aloe gel never gave me problems before

    As Pattsi said…the Tego care LTP you chose…is not a good choice for Aloe (he said Electrolytes….same, same).  Anytime you choose to use a claim ingredient like aloe…it will dictate what can emulsify it.

    In this case…you did the double whammy…with adding a cationic solution and a strong electrolyte.

    Lose the Aloe gel…You tried adding a finished formula…to your formula….usually not a good mix.

    Even if you choose to use aloe powder….you might need to choose an emulsifier that plays well with electrolytes.

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