[jemolian]

I’ve noted my experience on the other thread already (ISIS vs DuraQuench). 

I find K-20W very interesting since i’ve tested at 0.5% in a toner format, 2% to 3.5% in a gel cream format. 

With my original gel cream formulation, at 1.5% Glycerin, my pillow case would stick to my face due to the tackiness, and i can still feel the Glycerin in the morning. 

With the K-20W, at 2% with 1.5% Glycerin, skin feel wise, it seems to alter the tackiness significantly. Touching my face, at about 30 mins after application, it’s as though i had not applied anything, but my formulation is still working as my dry patch went away as i tested it for at least 5 days. When i used 3% K-20W with 3% Glycerin, the skin feel is the same. I’ll probably try loading it with 5% Glycerin next. 

My skin is prone to breaking out but so far it’s significantly effective for my dry skin, no breakouts so far.  

In terms of sheen, here’s the photo i took. I had applied a gel cream with 3% K-20W on the right side half, as you can see there’s no sheen. There’s a blurred reflection of the ceiling lights on the table, so you will be able to judge for reference. 

I’ve not yet tried 5% Glycerin with it yet, so perhaps i’ll try it with @Graillotion 2% recommendation soon. Though i’d like to also test out different combinations with the Diglycerin that @helenhelen mentioned. I think there are a few humectants that i can purchase, i would like to test out further. 

   

The diagram is from the NOF Macbiobride series, quite a few manufacturers has this 4 ingredients, so i’m supposing the Diglycerin would perform similarly to MP-10P based on description. I can’t find the MP-10P, so i’ll have to try the Diglycerin to find out. 

[jemolian]

I find K-20W very interesting since i’ve tested at 0.5% in a toner format, 2% to 3.5% in a gel cream format.

With my original gel cream formulation, at 1.5% Glycerin, my pillow case would stick to my face due to the tackiness, and i can still feel the Glycerin in the morning. 

With the K-20W, at 2% with 1.5% Glycerin, skin feel wise, it seems to alter the tackiness significantly. Touching my face, at about 30 mins after application, it’s as though i had not applied anything, but my formulation is still working as my dry patch went away as i tested it for at least 5 days. When i used 3% K-20W with 3% Glycerin, the skin feel is the same. I’ll probably try loading it with 5% Glycerin next. 

My skin is prone to breaking out but so far it’s significantly effective for my dry skin, no breakouts so far.  

[jemolian]

Normally they’d call it an oil. Though i’d consider oil a product base, and serum a product format, so to me, it’s a oil serum, which people will know that its commonly identified as an oil based product used at the serum step that is 30ml to 50ml. 

[jemolian]

You can use it to sub out some percentages of the Glycerin to reduce tack, as i usually do with my Betaine, though some people might be sensitive to Butylene Glycol.

I’m sensitive to some of the other Glycols / Diols, so normally i try not to use them for my face formulations, but each of them have a different texture, “tingly-ness” and sometimes “heat” to it since it’s what i normally feel when i apply them to my face. 

[jemolian]

When you use Aristoflex in a cream emulsion….do you add it to the water or oil….seems like it can be done either way?  Guessing it might not start to gel, if in the oil phase…therefore making it slightly easier to work with? Or…are you adding it post-emulsion…as that also seems to be an option?

Either one of the three way is fine, depending on your required processes of your ingredient. My Aristoflex has clumped up, so mine is a pre-made gel which i add after emulsification.   

[jemolian]

It depends on how you market it, you won’t be able to mention SPF values from it since it requires testing, though you can market it to contain some UV protective properties due to the oil. 

You can download the full text to take a look: 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/215523935_Characteristics_of_raspberry_Rubus_idaeus_L_seed_oil

[jemolian]

Unfortunately, I’ve not really tested on butters because i’ve only seen most of the china sellers sell limited butters and most of them only stock shea butter, so i can’t really give an opinion on the rest. 

[jemolian]

I’ve not tested the feel or texture combo extensively, so i can’t comment on that too much. One of my test base combination was:

3% Montanov L
1.5% Cetyl Alcohol
0.6% Aristoflex
0.15% Ultrex 21
3% Capric / Caprylic Triglyceride
3% Glycerin

It turned out to be a very creamy moisturizer. 

[jemolian]

I think if you are not using any electrolytes, you can consider using 3% to 4% Montanov 202 with 0.75% to 1% Aristoflex, depending on how thick you need the moisturizer to be. If you are using some small amounts of electrolytes, then 1% to 1.5% Sepinov should be fine. 

Though with the K-20W, using carbomers would be fine as well. Normally i’d use Ultrez 10 or 20 depending on the electrolytes.  

[jemolian]

I’m still observing the performance of the K-20W over a few days.

I added too much by accident, so it was 3.5%, for initial observation, it seems that is increases glide and also detacks the humectants significantly. Previously my pillow case would stick to my face slightly but with the K-20W, it seems totally fine. I probably can readjust the other ingredients accordingly to increase humectancy. 

[jemolian]

No problem. I have to return the favor for the K-20W recommendation somehow. If you need the rest of the Montanov ones, i believe i should have it. 

[jemolian]

I believe seppic has tested them so you normally can find some reference to that in their longer product info PDFs. Below are my dropbox links to the files if you haven’t saved them before: 

Montanov 202
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ri9tfvxjlcaz0t9/0922_Montanov_202_logo%20gb%5B1%5D.pdf?dl=0

Montanov 68
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru7s5v7dms51bu5/montanov%2068.pdf?dl=0

For the 165 type, not sure if any manufacturer as tested it since they are widely produced. 

[jemolian]

Normally as part of a formulation challenge to myself, sometimes i will setup some weird challenge for my moisturizers, but i’d normally run through my ingredients via the following to see how consumers would perceive it: 

• https://www.skincarisma.com/ingredient-analyzer
• https://cosmily.com/ingredient-checker
• https://incidecoder.com/decode-inci
• https://www.cosdna.com/eng/ingredients.php
• https://folliculitisscout.com/ 

Comedogenicity varies from person to person so, it still largely depends on the person if they would break out from it. 

[jemolian]

Normally a day cream would be lighter or lower in percentage in terms of lipids or texture. Something that can possibly go before a sunscreen. 

For the night cream, usually it would be on the heavier side, depending on the lipids of choice, if a day cream is too shiny, the user may also choose to use it at night instead. However they may also choose to use a day cream but add an oil to make it “heavier”, so they don’t need another cream. 

If you need examples of real routines, i’d recommend that you take a look at the reddit posts that people lists their routine on the SkincareAddiction or Asianbeauty sub.

[jemolian]

Tried the BioLatum today….in a rather dry lotion…and at 1%, it took it to something I did not care for, shiny, and residual oiliness.  My skin does not soak up oil like a sponge.  

Yes, i guess that would be one of the pitfalls of using petrolatum like ingredients. I’m wondering if using a mattifying emulsifier like Montanov 202 would reduce the shine. So far testing with 7.5% White Petrolatum is fine but slightly too shiny. Not sure if using starches would reduce their TEWL reduction effects.  

[jemolian]

I got mine from China as per most of my common ingredients but you should be able to purchase it from the Germany side. 

I’m mainly using it since i can’t really use Niacianmide since i’m allergic to it, they have some similar benefits but so far i think performance wise it would be complimentary to Glycerin but wouldn’t really out perform Glycerin in terms of giving a substantiating or lasting skin feel. 

My base formula is mainly Isononyl Isononanoate, Aquaxyl, Glycerin, Betaine, Trehalose, Sepinov EMT 10, Septonic M3. It does it’s job relatively well in keeping the skin relatively hydrated and lightly moisturized, but i doesn’t hurt to add a more moisturizing ingredient. I’m try to get a flexible formula that is not tacky under higher humidity (around 70%) but still sufficient for lower humidity (45%).

[jemolian]

I’ll try it at 2% with Isononyl Isononanoate, Aquaxyl and Glycerin and see how it will change the moisturization performance or skin feel.

[jemolian]

That’s great, i’ll maybe order from Lotioncrafter next time to test it out again. The K-20W i bought from Nobleroots just arrived so i’m also eager to test it out over the weekend. Took some time since i’m not in the US. 

[jemolian]

You can probably find them at ulprospector and check the tech specs there. 

[jemolian]

As someone who is Asian and also worked as digital marketing in a small Korean skincare distribution company & also answered customer questions on their routine, i’d just say it’s marketing and how they market it. 

It depends on what perspective you are looking at, we Asian has been into Japanese, Taiwanese, Korean skin care for years, so the western side is slowly catching up, just not to the Taiwanese side, probably because their products are not distributed well enough. 

Their style of formulation is slightly different from the western side of formulating as well. Though for the Korean and Japanese, there are more variety of products that can cover summer / winter needs. 

[jemolian]

@ngarayeva001 any recommendations for (maybe low HLB) co-emulsifiers for the Cetyl PEG/PPG-10/1 Dimethicone? I don’t think i can source for the Polyglyceryl-4 Isostearate. Would something like Olivem 900 do?  

[jemolian]

I did the combo since i saw the Geltrap idea but there’s no issues so far at room temperature with both Sepinov EMT 10 or Sepimax Zen. Though i’m really curious is it really performed as well as the Geltrap would do or if it’s even similar. 

[jemolian]

You will need to meet the requirements to stabilize it but i tested it with Sepinov EMT 10 since i don’t have the co-emulsifier that it’s normally paired with, it seems to be much draggier.  

[jemolian]

I can’t remember which shop i bought it from, i think FSS, but the smell made me gag a little. Not using it ever again. You can try it and see if you are fine with it though. 

[jemolian]

Normally i’d do light gel creams since it’s humid where i am, so my basic format is like this: 

• 5% - 10% Ester (normally Isononyl Isononanoate)
• 3% Lotionpro 165 or similar, Montanov L is fine as well
• 2% Cetyl Alcohol
• 1% Aristoflex AVC or 0.75% Sodium Carbomer
• Glycerin with Betaine
• Preservative 

I don’t use Glycols or Diols since they make my face tingle. Other Montanovs should be fine. It’s replaceable with Montanov 202 if you want a matte finish.