Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Comedogenic ratings of emulsifiers….

  • Comedogenic ratings of emulsifiers….

    Posted by Graillotion on September 14, 2020 at 12:50 am

    I have spent a lot of time evaluating comedogenic rating of potential oils and butters for a face cream I will start work on, only to realize…one of the likely villains might me the emulsifier I might choose.
    A quick search…I did not find an emulsifier comedogenic rating list.

    My original finalist for primary emulsifiers was:

    165
    Mont 68
    Mont 202

    With various co-emulsifiers collected.

    And thoughts of comedogenic values of the above 3?

    cosmetics273 replied 5 months, 1 week ago 5 Members · 19 Replies
  • 19 Replies
  • Graillotion

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 12:59 am

    Some of the co-emulsifiers I will try are:
    Aristoflex AVC
    Sepinov EMT 10
    Eumulgin SG (Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate)

    But since these will be used at lower rates…not sure if I need to be as concerned?

  • jemolian

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 1:56 am

    Normally as part of a formulation challenge to myself, sometimes i will setup some weird challenge for my moisturizers, but i’d normally run through my ingredients via the following to see how consumers would perceive it: 

    Comedogenicity varies from person to person so, it still largely depends on the person if they would break out from it. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 3:12 am

    I did find the answer on one of the emulsifiers, Mont 202:

    Montanonv 202 is that it gives creams a unique evanescent and light feel with a matt finish. It also leaves the skin soft, but not oily, is hypoallergenic and non-comedogenic making it perfect for both oily and sensitive skin formulas.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 3:12 am

    jemolian said:

    Normally as part of a formulation challenge to myself, sometimes i will setup some weird challenge for my moisturizers, but i’d normally run through my ingredients via the following to see how consumers would perceive it: 

    Comedogenicity varies from person to person so, it still largely depends on the person if they would break out from it. 

    Thank you….these are useful tools I had not come across before!

  • jemolian

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 3:19 am

    I believe seppic has tested them so you normally can find some reference to that in their longer product info PDFs. Below are my dropbox links to the files if you haven’t saved them before: 

    Montanov 202
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ri9tfvxjlcaz0t9/0922_Montanov_202_logo%20gb%5B1%5D.pdf?dl=0

    Montanov 68
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru7s5v7dms51bu5/montanov%2068.pdf?dl=0

    For the 165 type, not sure if any manufacturer as tested it since they are widely produced. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 4:14 am

    jemolian said:

    I believe seppic has tested them so you normally can find some reference to that in their longer product info PDFs. Below are my dropbox links to the files if you haven’t saved them before: 

    Montanov 202
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ri9tfvxjlcaz0t9/0922_Montanov_202_logo%20gb%5B1%5D.pdf?dl=0

    Montanov 68
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru7s5v7dms51bu5/montanov%2068.pdf?dl=0

    For the 165 type, not sure if any manufacturer as tested it since they are widely produced. 

    According to your inci decoder site….165 has a rating of 1-2.  So of the three….Mont 202 in the only non comedogenic of the three emulsifiers.

    To be honest…it was the one I was most excited about trying….1) PEG Free, 2) Matte finish…sorry…I just hate the gloss.

    Thank you for helping me sort through those.  I really like the detailed links on the Montanov emulsifiers.

  • jemolian

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 4:36 am

    No problem. I have to return the favor for the K-20W recommendation somehow. :) If you need the rest of the Montanov ones, i believe i should have it. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 4:56 am

    jemolian said:

    No problem. I have to return the favor for the K-20W recommendation somehow. :) If you need the rest of the Montanov ones, i believe i should have it. 

    Nope….gonna test 202….and probably a mix of 202 and 68…. Then 68, and 165… And pick the best… (will also be testing combinations above with Sepinov EMT 10, and Aristoflex AVC….so the possible combinations….is already really high!)

  • jemolian

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 5:08 am

    I think if you are not using any electrolytes, you can consider using 3% to 4% Montanov 202 with 0.75% to 1% Aristoflex, depending on how thick you need the moisturizer to be. If you are using some small amounts of electrolytes, then 1% to 1.5% Sepinov should be fine. 

    Though with the K-20W, using carbomers would be fine as well. Normally i’d use Ultrez 10 or 20 depending on the electrolytes.  

  • Graillotion

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 5:17 am

    For the face cream…I have kicked all the electrolytes out.  So that I could try and max the sensories with the Aristoflex AVC (as a co-emulsifier) and the likes.  I think the only one left….is EDTA at .2%.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 5:22 am

    jemolian said:

    I think if you are not using any electrolytes, you can consider using 3% to 4% Montanov 202 with 0.75% to 1% Aristoflex, depending on how thick you need the moisturizer to be. If you are using some small amounts of electrolytes, then 1% to 1.5% Sepinov should be fine. 

    Though with the K-20W, using carbomers would be fine as well. Normally i’d use Ultrez 10 or 20 depending on the electrolytes.  

    I had read someone’s comment…and maybe I understood it incorrectly….but that maybe there was a synergy regarding ‘feel’ with carbomer and Aristoflex AVC….?  Had you ever heard or experienced this?

  • jemolian

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 5:29 am

    I’ve not tested the feel or texture combo extensively, so i can’t comment on that too much. One of my test base combination was:

    3% Montanov L
    1.5% Cetyl Alcohol
    0.6% Aristoflex
    0.15% Ultrex 21
    3% Capric / Caprylic Triglyceride
    3% Glycerin

    It turned out to be a very creamy moisturizer. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 6:01 am

    jemolian said:

    I’ve not tested the feel or texture combo extensively, so i can’t comment on that too much. One of my test base combination was:

    3% Montanov L
    1.5% Cetyl Alcohol
    0.6% Aristoflex
    0.15% Ultrex 21
    3% Capric / Caprylic Triglyceride
    3% Glycerin

    It turned out to be a very creamy moisturizer. 

    You have been such a wealth of information….let me toss this one at you.  I have a couple of butters I use for my lotions…and want to know which ones have a low comedogenic rating…. I am aware of Shea…but never really liked the feel.
    I also have Mango….but I like the below butters much better.

    I bought Kokum just for the facial cream…as I believe it is also a 0.  I also use Illipe (Shorea Stenoptera)
    Cupuacu
    Murumuru
    and have a sample of Pentadema Butter (Kpangnan) on the way.

    Do you know the Comedogenic rating on any of these?  I like to blend butters…hehehhee.

  • jemolian

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 6:06 am

    Unfortunately, I’ve not really tested on butters because i’ve only seen most of the china sellers sell limited butters and most of them only stock shea butter, so i can’t really give an opinion on the rest. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 6:10 am

    jemolian said:

    Unfortunately, I’ve not really tested on butters because i’ve only seen most of the china sellers sell limited butters and most of them only stock shea butter, so i can’t really give an opinion on the rest. 

    I have only found one source of butters that I consider…OUTSTANDING.  

    International Cosmetics Science Centre A/S

    Phone: +45 86 22 99 86 • http://www.icsc.dk • reu@ifsc.dk

    Address: Cedervej 7, DK-8462 Harlev J - DENMARK

     

    cidimage006png01D486609F4C7F00cidimage002png01D5E708923921B0

     

     Keep in mind….their products are ultra refined….no scent….no color … just light amazing goodness.  Some would disagree with me…if you can not smell the fires of the Amazon burning that they used to extract the raw butter out in the forest…hehehe.

  • chemicalmatt

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 4:52 pm

    Folks, just keep in mind that comedogenicty is concentration dependent. Sweet Almond Oil is one of the highest rated - at 100% - but at 5% in your formula, not so much. With these surfactants, same holds true. Allergenicity is a broader issue and phenotype specific. 

  • OldPerry

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 6:46 pm

    @chemicalmatt - Exactly!  Dose matters. It’s true of ALL cosmetic ingredients.

    I think comedogenic ratings are pretty much worthless.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 8:53 pm

    Folks, just keep in mind that comedogenicty is concentration dependent. Sweet Almond Oil is one of the highest rated - at 100% - but at 5% in your formula, not so much. With these surfactants, same holds true. Allergenicity is a broader issue and phenotype specific. 

    I assumed as much, and since the primary emulsifier will probably be in the top 5 ingredients, it aroused my attention.  Since my goal is for Montanov 202 to win this competition, I think I am in good standing with both comedogenics and allergens.
    Even though diluting comedogenic materials will in functionality reduce the potential for pore clogging, it might cause an educated consumer (or I suppose, uneducated can also be inserted here) to hesitate to buy the end product.  Therefore if I can eliminate them up front….I eliminate purchase hurdles down the road.
    Thank you for your comments.

  • cosmetics273

    Member
    November 19, 2023 at 5:24 pm

    Hello , I have a primer and I would like to understand if pass non comedogenic test and has got Shea butter in the INCI list first after water (in higher %) , and SORBITAN
    OLEATE just in the end of INCI list rated 3 and cetearyl alcohol rated 2, Butylene Glycol rated 1, dimethicone rated, Squalane rated 1, in little %

    Any suggestions about shea butter can be very comedogenic?

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