[Gunther]

Plain dimethicone can reduce soaping quite a bit.
If you already have PEG-12 dimethicone, then plain dimethicone is just as “label unfriendly” to scaremongers. But most people don’t even care about dimethicone. They don’t even know what it is.

Glycerin can also reduce soaping a bit. But too much can make it feel sticky.

[Gunther]

tinas said:

For my hair conditioner, I use GEL network (Stearyl alc, Cetyl alc and SLS) and the gel is wonderful - no “whitening” effekt. Is it possible to create a similar kind of gel with something else than SLS, since I do not want to use SLS for skin care. I do not want any oil in the gel, and I do not want Zepimax (crosspolymer) since it is syntetic.

How did you manage to make anionic SLS compatible with cationic conditioners?

You can make gel networks with SLES instead of SLS.

[Gunther]

Is that “micellar water” meant to be rinsed off?

If its is, then Panthenol and Glycerin can be removed (or reduced to claim ingredient levels 0.1-0.01%) as they’ll do nothing useful and just end up in the drain.
It it’s not then be careful as glucosides can leave a sticky afterfeel (they even leave a sticky feel in rinse off applications).

[Gunther]

We had so much trouble dissolving GHTC,
it always seemed to form lumps even in bare water
that we switched to Polyquaternium-10 to get rid of so much trouble (and get better conditioning).

[Gunther]

You can add whatever surfactant you want, but you’d need to rinse it out, unlike alcohol which readily evaporates.

You can use butyl cellosolve or some other glycol ethers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-Butoxyethanol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycol_ethers

You probably won’t get many answers here, as this board in mainly intended for cosmetic formulations.

[Gunther]

You can use it but you don’t want to.
At that pH (8-9) most EDTA will probably become Tetrasodium itself anyhow.

Disodium EDTA takes ages to dissolve, unlike Tetrasodium which readily dissolves.

[Gunther]

They probably left out the emulsifiers and fatty alcohols too.
I doubt they could achieve a proper cream only with Polysorbate 20, even with carbomer.

[Gunther]

What about parabens?

[Gunther]

Pharma said:

That’s what I’ve learned too. Silicones ‘breath’, so to say.

What’s your difference between mineral oil and petrolatum?

In my opinion petrolatum perceived moisturization feels so much better than mineral oil or silicones.

Sensorials are different for all 3 above.
So maybe you need Petrolatum to reduce TEWL and silicones to reduce soaping.

[Gunther]

Polyox can provide slip like nothing else does.
But be aware it’s only meant for rinse-off conditioners.
If used in leave-on conditioners it will leave a messy, undesirable globby film as water evaporates.

[Gunther]

Cst4Ms4Tmps4 said:

@Gunther

You want to make a spray, eh. You need emulsifier that is liquid at room temperature. Sorbitan (Span) and Polysorbate (Tween). General rule is if you want sprayable emulsion then you use liquid emulsifier/s, at YOUR room temperature (wherever you reside). I don’t like spray stuff but I use Polysorbate because I use dropper bottle, it is almost impossible to impossible to squeeze anything out should I use emulsifiers such as Emulsifying Wax. If use less of it I might as well don’t use it at all because there is a minimum amount of emulsifier to properly emulsify something.

May I ask which Tween/Span did you use (i.e. 20, 60, 80) and how much is usually needed to emulsify silicones?

[Gunther]

The main problem is that at acidic, or even neutral pH, Sodium or Potassium stearate becomes free stearic acid which is both water insoluble and has no emulsifying properties whatsoever.

I’d add some cationics (behentrimonium, cetrimonium) as emulsifiers, used along fatty alcohols (which you already have).

What’s the intended application for it?
Is that a skin cream or a hair conditioner?

[Gunther]

Cst4Ms4Tmps4 said:

@Gunther
It is the fatty alcohol in BTMS-50 that does the trick. Bentrimonium Methosulfate/Chloride does thicken to some degree but not enough which is the reason why there is something else added to it.

Believe it or not it is viscosity (and yield stress) that counts.

Behentrimonium Methosulfate/Chloride per se is not a good emulsifier of silicones or any lipid for that matter. There is a valid reason why nonionic surfactants are the best solubiliser/emulsifier of lipids.

Nonionic > Anionic > Cationic

I can be wrong but in theory it is and most people use nonionic surfactants as primary emulsifiers. Anionic may be as strong or stronger than nonionic but most nonionic don’t foam so much and less harsh to skin, this is probably the main reason why nonionic is popular.

Viscosity and yield stress are the key. Carbomer and Xanthan Gum are not emulsifiers but they have incredibly high yield stress.

Similarly, some people swear by beeswax and waxes.
likewise, there are still people believing and spreading misinformation of fatty acids/alcohols are emulsifiers. This has been debunked over and over. Fatty acids have that -OH group and hence “acid” but it is too weak to be an emulsifier or surfactant. Some myths simply never die.

Success of thickeners such as fatty alcohols and waxes depends on the cooling down, hence why the instruction is keep stirring and mixing. They rely on actual thickening. If a medium is thick enough you don’t need an actual emulsifier to suspend stuff.

Having said that, temperature is irrelevant if Carbomer is used! Of course there are people believing Carbomer is ALSO an emulsifier. Oh well. The easiest evidence is add water, as much as possible and you will soon see something floating. That is not true Scotsman (emulsion). LOL!

Emulsifier, on the other hand, it emulsifies then it emulsifies. It doesn’t rely on thickening to emulsify. Extreme temperatures may separate an emulsion but does not require constant babysitting like it is needed for fatty alcohols and waxes.

Suspend is NOT the same as emulsify. Just because lipids are not seen floating doesn’t at all mean they are emulsified.

Note: The said Carbomer is the good old Carbomer. Not HASE, HUER, Permulan.

I can relate to that as I had trouble getting a liquid spray-on BTMS conditioner to emulsify silicones. Some (unemulfified) dimethicone droplets always rose to the liquid surface, despite vigoruous mixing.
Being liquid it had little viscosity to keep the silicone droplets suspended.

Can you compensate for that by just adding more cationic emulsifier to properly emulsify silicones?
What would be a good ratio?

[Gunther]

Glycerin, allantoin and proteins don’t do anything useful or noticeable in rinse off applications, so you can get rid of them.

Essential oils reduce foam, so use as little as needed of them.

You’d need to conduct microbiological challenge tests for that, especially since bacteria loves proteins and xanthan gum.

What’s the dog typical skin pH?
Because you’ll want the shampoo to match that as closely as possible.

[Gunther]

Ethyl alcohol smells much less than IPA.

[Gunther]

Being betamethasone a pharmaceutical product, you’ll likely need to hire a professional pharmacist to get gov’t approval, even if it’s approved to be sold as OTC.

Mercury is banned everywhere.

[Gunther]

Cst4Ms4Tmps4 said:

Benhentrimonium Methosulfate that I always found is with some fatty alcohols. This is the reason why BTMS-50 is believed to ’emulsify’ very very high percentage of silicone. It is an illusion and a trickery. 

So BTMS-50 doesn’t really emulsify silicones?

[Gunther]

Do all those extracts and oils have any useful and scientifically proven purpose?
Most likely they don’t
So get rid of them (or reduce them to claim ingredient levels), simplify your formula to avoid potentially destiabilizing ingredients.

[Gunther]

Most moisturizers are useless in rinse off applications.
They have too little time to act to do anything useful before being rinsed off and end up in the drain.

Cationics, i.e. some Polyquaternium, PEG-7 Glyceryl cocoate or Cocamide DEA may have some modest skin conditioning or refattening properties, but make sure they don’t leave a sticky afterfeel.

[Gunther]

You can do fine with a SLES + CAPB + tiny amount of salt as a body wash.

To thicken Na lauroyl sarcosinate you’ll need some thickener like Crothix, which greatly increases costs.

For preservatives:
methyl paraben <0.4%
propylparabeb <0.14%
EDTA <= 0.1% works fine and meets EU regulations (AFAIK)
You can use the Sodium paraben salts as they are easier to dissolve, but make sure they don’t interefere with SLES viscosity as they are salts as well.

[Gunther]

Isopropyl alcohol smells worse and may be more drying to the skin (albeit skin drying by alcohols is overstated).

On the other hand, IPA is a much better solvent than ethanol is
so check to make sure ethanol dissolves the other ingredients.

You can denature the alcohol yourself. No need to buy readily denatured alcohol.

[Gunther]

shuchi said:

@Gunther My supplier is a reseller. I asked for cetrimonium chloride and the label reads ‘cetrimide’. Since I have a fatal passion for cosmetic formulation, I am trying my hand at it. Otherwise I am a lawyer and a finance professional.   and so I am having to trust my supplier with what he gives.? Thanks so much for the knowledge you have shared. 

The oils I read could balance off the impact of SLES on the hair. Same with aloe. Again aloe extract is what I get. It was by mistake I had mentioned gel. Thanks sgain.

Cetrimide contains Cetrimonium bromide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetrimide
Unlike chlorides, bromides can be quite toxic. That may (or may not) explain the dizziness you experienced.
Ditch cetrimide and switch to cetrimonium chloride or some behentrimonium salt.

[Gunther]

Surfactant levels are fine
SLES 9.8% active
Na lauroyl sarcosinate 3% active
CAPB might be a bit high, 4.8% (but it shouldn’t increase slipperiness, just increase costs).

Try without glycerin. It does nothing in rinse off applications.

Please conduct microbiological challenge tests as I don’t think Na-benzoate + EDTA is enough as preservative.

Why TEA?

[Gunther]

There are studies that prove that some Polyquaterniums and silicones can adhere to hair filling up the damaged spots, smoothing it out.

i.e. Google:

The Influence of Polyquaternium-7 on the hair properties

Morphological analysis of polymers on hair fibers by SEM and AFM

New Approaches for Assessing Conditioning and Quantifying Silicone Deposition on Hair

[Gunther]

PVP lasts quite a long time on hair (it actually lasts until it’s washed off)
You can just use more of it as needed.