[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion:

You are making this waaaay too complicated.  If you prepeare your own extract, you should add a preservative to it if you are not going to use all of it at one time, but store some for future use.
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So, to cut to the chase:  You should preserve your self-made extract and then separately preserve your entire formula.  It is no more complicated than that.  Preservation affects the entire formula, not individual ingredients within the formula independent of the other ingredients.

Yes…I over think every aspect of my cosmetic endeavors….which probably isn’t a bad thing as far as the customer is concerned.  

Because I use a less than optimal preservation system…. (5 step hurdle + E9010), I am always looking to make sure when I add bug food, I minimize it’s impact, in anyway possible

I was trying to see if I could introduce bug food in a manner that did not increase the stress on an already less than premium preservation system.  Not saying it doesn’t work currently…it does… Just I never want to stretch it to the max…I prefer to be over protected…not…..Just protected.

[Graillotion]

domicanica said:

Thanks for your input! How much do I add to formulas and where in the process do I add it in a body lotion and body wash?

Those are the typical use rates…I suppose I would select the rate based on the quality of water I was starting with.

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Pharma said:

I’ve been involved in a few collaborations with cosmetic industries during my postdoc in pharmacognosy & phytochemistry: The aim was to create scientific proof that the plant (not the sold extract) contains active ingredients aligning with intended marketing claims whilst the extract to be finally used had to be non-toxic and skin impermeable (else, it would have been a drug, not a cosmetic). I hated that kind of work but it’s been good $$ from which also our real research profited. This and the need to publish where money instead of need is killed my interest in further pursuing my academic career.

So sad, but so true.

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

Tips:
Need a chelator.
Rosehip seed oil is very fragile….need an antioxidant with an oil like that.

Ahh, good to know! Are there any chelators you could recommend or that you prefer..? EDTA or any of the natural alternatives like the Dermofeel Series…?

Well…EDTA is cost effective, efficient, and readily available.  Might not be the most favored with the natural crowd.  There are several good choices if you are wanting to take that approach….just check with your suppliers.  If you are not chasing some natural badge…then stick with EDTA.

[Graillotion]

Oh…and emulsifier inclusion rate looks low.

[Graillotion]

Tips:
Need a chelator.
Rosehip seed oil is very fragile….need an antioxidant with an oil like that.

[Graillotion]

First thing that jumps out….is 7% glycerine.
Feel your ingredients neat….you’ll answer your own questions.
Blend humectants…using some that are not sticky.
What are you using to lock in your moisture?
If you don’t have a strong barrier function….it will evaporate as fast as your ingredients evaporate.

[Graillotion]

Yes…I would also like to be a test subject for your hair regrowth cream.  That is impressive how that eyebrow grew back.  I have thinning hair, and would like to test the product for this alternative use.  You can PM me on this forum.

All though I am concerned with the skin lesions that develop within 5-10 minutes of use.  Should I be concerned?

[Graillotion]

Need to include inclusion rate to get a good answer on that.

ie: glycerol at low rates….not sticky in the end product (usually)…glycerol at higher rates….will contribute to a sticky end product.

Just feel each of your ingredients, neat…and you can answer that question your self….If it goes in sticky, and included at more than a trace level…it will begin to transfer that characteristic to the final product.

[Graillotion]

Was tocopheryl acetate recommended by the formulator….or you chose to add that?

[Graillotion]

Is that the FULL INCI?

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ngarayeva001 said:

@Graillotion, they probably just threw some hydrogenated vegetable oil in it.

Yes….sad to see what vendors will do to the newbies! 

[Graillotion]

Sometimes it helps if you say your country.  Then others on the forum that live there can steer you to an emulsifier supplier.

Well…if you have a 50% oil phases (if I understood correctly)…you will certainly need a real emulsifier, and way more of it.

Is there anything a 50% oil phases product will do….that a 20% oil phase cream won’t do (and feel way better doing it)?

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

Clinique used to have cyclomethicone in their old repairwear night cream but the new one doesn’t have it.

Graillotion said:

Night creams are in my understanding… thicker, more dense, a richer feel.  

Depends on your market - Korean brands tend to keep it very lightweight but have to be dewy for some period of time. 

some use it

If I remember correctly, you have an in-house influencer right? She definitely have more insight than me.

Wow….some of those formulas have quite a bit, all though…I suppose that could be near the 1% line on some of those formulas.  They do not use the liberal amounts of Isoamyl laurate, isononyl isononanoate, and Coco-Caprylate/Caprate that I am using.

My latest versions have a blend of Mont 202 and L (for lightness) and Mont 68 for richness.  So I have the exact viscosity (very much towards lite, yet strangely rich) I want, and with the addition of Hydrogenated polyisobutene, certainly got the dew level at a point that will satisfy any Korean, including the in house tester.  (Everything I make…has a touch of Aristoflex, and Carbomer, …that is just a given…when I discuss emulsifiers.)

Pharma is having me push the level on the barrier, so also added some calendula wax (below 1%), and that has been a really nice addition.

[Graillotion]

Perry said:

I doubt you would see much benefit if you’re already using high end emollients.

Agreed….no benefits….just changes the sensory package.

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Pharma said:

At a such low inclusion rate, maybe the one point to consider, apart from an at best mild effect on spreading and finishing touch, is reduced soaping .

Soaping…hehehe…I have almost forgotten what that is.
I have found at 1%…the results were pretty dramatic.  But you know how I am.

[Graillotion]

As said above…lacking a true emulsifer.

What are you trying to make?

[Graillotion]

Body butter typically contains no water.
An emulsion…always contains water.
Anything that contains water must be preserved.
Butters can be added to either…all though if you get something called cherry butter….you are probably getting some yuck veggie butter with some cherry oil added….since cherry…does not make a butter.    (Better to choose an awesome real butter, and add some cherry oil to your formula.)

[Graillotion]

I use the simplest form…

  

[Graillotion]

In your heading….you mentioned condensation…. Chemical Matt had a good comment in another thread…which reminded me… You might consider adding some glycols.  That can only help….in so many ways.

I usually stir them in at the end of cool down…with fragrance and preservative….be warned…there is a brief…OH CRAP…moment when you think you’ve destroyed your emulsion….but don’t worry…it looks good again with 30-40 seconds of hand stirring.

[Graillotion]

JonahRay said:

@Graillotion finally got my hands on glyceryl stearate citrate and looks like the problem has been solved (into the incubator it goes). I also increased 68MB to 4% and also added in some tribehenin - thank you so much for the advice!

Hope all goes well!

GSC is really nice…in that it really doesn’t change the tactile feeling that you chase with the main emulsifier.  I had tried a different anionic in my journeys, and it absolutely destroyed the feel I was chasing with the Montanov’s.

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

Oh goodness!! Well, I’m glad I’m not the only one!  I have a bunch of fragrance oils that I will probably never use because out of all of them, I really only like 2 or 3 of them! Damn, ok, was hoping you would have a special fragrance supplier that you love and could direct me to but I guess my search will continue. One lesson I have learned is that I shouldn’t buy more than 1 or 2 small or sample sized fragrance oils from any one vendor, hehe ????

Yes…I have found the reviews posted on the vendor sites….are absolutely worthless….people will rave about things…that absolutely stink!

Hehehe….maybe as picky people we would have the same fav’s?

We should compare notes.

[Graillotion]

Hahaha…. I have 80 fragrances…from maybe 10 vendors.

There is no one company better than another as far as finding something you like…that is all just personal opinion.

I was thinking about selling them off on e-bay….in lots of 10….grab bag style…hehehe.

Ohh…and of those 80…I have one that I like, and maybe 2-3 that won’t kill me.   

And of course in this industry…there are many re-packers…selling the same thing with different names.  

[Graillotion]

Climatechangeanxiety said:

@DAS gotcha..i’m just a hobbyist for now so I don’t have a industry-standard manufacturing process. I’ll add the preservatives after cooldown, but for the ‘heated phase’ was just wondering if adding boiling water to my surfactants will do any bad.

I guess what is confusing us is…. Will it do any good?  Other than being a waste of energy…what would the point be?  What are you trying to gain?  Some hobbyist will use glassware and a microwave to reduce energy use. 

When I have an emulsifier that needs heat…I try and use as little heat as possible to achieve the necessary temperature.  Energy is expensive in Hawaii!

I think what some of the other’s are trying to say….is process is very important.  If you don’t repeat the same exact process each time…you will ultimately create a slightly different product each time.  If you are only making for yourself…that is fine.   If you are considering selling…..not so fine.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

@Graillotion i bought mine from china as per usual, but then in terms of skin feel wise, Isononyl Isononoate’s profile is very fast spreading, silky and relatively fast absorbing even up to 20%.

Just bought some Hydrogenated Polyisobutene, so hope to test it when it arrives. 

Thank you…. I went ahead and order samples from ULP… I have a repacker whom I can sometimes twist their arm into getting specialty products.

I just started with the polyisobutene last week….in a very lite lotion package…and it definately enhanced the durability of the humectants.  So plan on trying it again tomorrow with a little higher rate of hydrolyzed Jojoba esters, to make it feel like a lite weight, but moisturize like a heavy weight.  I can usually get that effect by raising the HJE’s up in that 3% range.