Cosmetic Science Talk

Cosmetic Science discussion form. For people who want for formulate cosmetics and get advice from other formulators around the world.

Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Problem in Formula

  • Problem in Formula

    Posted by Dreamer77 on April 5, 2021 at 4:17 pm

    Here’s the deal something in my formula oxidises no matter what I do to prevent this from happening. Right after the preparation the cream colour is light beige and after 1 day (no matter what type of container used to store it) it starts changing into yellow and slowly goes into orange colouration. I use vitapherole70 0.1% as antioxidant, the formula contains also vitamine E acetate 1%. The oil phase of the formula mainly consists of butters and esters which both do not oxidise easily. I also use lipids (dispersed on water phase) and an active that is water dissolved and based on maltodextrin. Could it be Maltodextrin causing this shift on colouration? Please note that even though there is shift on colouration the perfume of the formula is still there, I can smell no rancidity or anything that shows that its an oil went bad. Thank you in advance

    ketchito replied 1 year, 3 months ago 17 Members · 62 Replies
  • 62 Replies
  • Pharma

    Member
    April 5, 2021 at 7:05 pm
    Please list entire LOI. That mystery ingredient based on water and maltodextrin, what is it?
    Try a knock out experiment (know out several ingredients at once can be a fast track if you know what you’re doing).
  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 5, 2021 at 8:25 pm

    Can some sort of instability within the formula lead to a pro-oxidative reaction despite the use of antioxidants within the  internal phase? If for example I have not included sufficient amount of thickeners and the cream after a while starts throwing out oil, can this lead to colour shifting?

  • Perry

    Member
    April 5, 2021 at 8:28 pm

    @Dreamer77 - what makes you think it’s an oxidation reaction?  Color change can be other types of reactions or physical processes.  Without your entire list of ingredients it’s difficult to give you any good advice.

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 5, 2021 at 10:03 pm

    I’m afraid I can’t pubblish the list of ingredients as it is a very expensive formula and it is destined to compete with formulas that sell for $1,000 per jar. I checked some samples I created in other variants containing both vitapherole70 0.1 & tocopheryl acetate 1.0 and they did not have colour shifting, compared the formulas and I have valid reason to believe that a difference in stearic acid of 0.5% may be causing this problem. Could it be true or is it in my mind?

  • Perry

    Member
    April 5, 2021 at 10:21 pm

    Sorry, can’t help you. You might consider contacting one of the chemists here directly and hire them to help you solve the problem.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 12:38 am

    Was tocopheryl acetate recommended by the formulator….or you chose to add that?

  • Abdullah

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 1:00 am

    What is this expensive cream used for? 

  • ozgirl

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 2:49 am
    @Dreamer77 You do know that if this product is a cosmetic you will have to list the ingredients on the label. So sharing them here would be no different than having them on the label.
    Most of us know know that the difference between a cream that sells for $50 and one that sells for $1000 is largely packaging and marketing not usually formulating.

    If you provide the ingredients list maybe someone can see an incompatibility between your ingredients. You do not need to provide percentages but if you want help you need to give more information.
  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 6:55 am

    I think I might have solved the problem. I eliminated one of the ingredients of the formula.

     I am using top end or high end if you prefer actives in pairs used by the manufacturers of the actives in clinical trials.

    The one I eliminated it’s called Revivyl by Givaudan, it is a skin renewal accelerator with antioxidant properties and perfume fix/stabilizing claims, it has a dark orange colouration, water soluble, it is added during cool down with slow/moderate sheering (specified by the manufacturer). Its recommended use rate is from 0.1-0.5…batches I did with 0.5 ended up more orange than those with 0.1, however those with 0.1 turned a bit orange even though I had them stored in glass jars filled to the top and stored away from light. 

    The smell of the formula has not changed after removing Revivyl, I am using a stable perfume from IFF that has an odour masking technology.

    I use tocopheryl acetate for its skin antioxidant properties,its skin antiaging properties and also for the sensorial feeling it helps me create. The formula is really loaded with butters and oils mainly esters and triglycerides that are difficult to oxidise (that’s why I can’t understand the shift in colour).

    The formula drastically reduces all wrinkles and expression lines throughout the entire face right from the first application after 5-10 minutes from 1st application to be more exact. its not like formulas that create a soft focus effect that blurs wrinkles with polymers and in which the user has to stand still for 5 minutes or so, I could add those as well (usually polymethacrylate polymers) but it would interfere with the spreading as like I mentioned it already has a high viscosity and it would need to do the formula again from the beginning in order to achieve smooth application.  

    I have already a large group/panel of clients, msinly women, that are using it. Noone has made any remarks/complaints regarding the shift in colouration however as they all enjoy the benefits of usage. Its me that has the problem, I want the formula to remain as white as possible.

    Well, the main difference of a $50 to a $1000 cream is that the actives used are different, and thus the result is different,  then comes in the marketing packaging promotion and the middlemen up until the customer that add up cost to the final product.

    I know I will have to list all ingredients on the jar, I just don’t know who might be reading all the information I am providing here and that’s why I am being cautious. The ingredient list is so big that one would need half hour reading and trying to figure out to which actives it corresponds to.

  • Pattsi

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 9:16 am

    Abdullah said:

    What is this expensive cream used for? 

    Some brands range from $500 - $1,800.

    Dreamer77 said:

    The formula drastically reduces all wrinkles and expression lines throughout the entire face right from the first application after 5-10 minutes from 1st application to be more exact. 

    Are you interested in letting go of the formula and IP with full range tests from Intertek and clinical trial subjects 200 for $13.3M(negotiable)?
    Or if you are a professional formulator with GMP certified facility, how about $33.31M + annual MCQ production contract?

    But maybe fix the stability issue first.

  • Perry

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 1:00 pm

    @Dreamer77 - While I do believe it is helpful for marketers to believe their own marketing, formulating chemists respond better to evidence rather than marketing stories. 

    “High end” actives is just a marketing story told by raw material makers to get formulators to use their ingredients. These ingredient don’t actually provide a consumer noticeable improvement. Although I am always on the lookout for evidence to show my evaluation is wrong so if you have scientifically controlled evidence you find compelling, please let me know.

    In fact, I may be so bold to say that you there is no skin cream you can buy that will work better than the relatively cheap Olay Regenerist line. And even in that line of products the “active” ingredients they talk about in their advertising are not the things that actually make the products work.

    I’m sure your product works perfectly fine & it’s good you’ve solved your stability problem. But I’m also sure that if you tested your formula in blinded fashion vs Olay, there would be little to no difference.

    This is probably not something you would want to do however, as I said at the outset, it is helpful for marketers to believe their own marketing.

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 1:52 pm

    I have solved the problem already, formulated it twice since last post and accelerated the stability issue by heating it up in temperature over 50C with no colouration whatsoever.

     When I say highend actives its not what marketers say for them but what I believe according to my experience is really high end.

    In the formula I have excluded ie Argireline and all known Botox like effect peptides but I include a couple of peptides from its creator, he has created a new company after he sold Lipotec to investors.

    I have a vast arsenal of actives already and quite a few formulas for various applications for both cosmetic and otc field, all tested with 100% success. If you’re interested send me a message and we’ll talk, I have already loads of results and I plan to set this formula on clinical trial myself as well. Also, there are actives out there that you have no idea they exist, the most expensive one that I have found costs around $15K per KG and it’s not bee venom or such.

    Thanx everyone for the input, you helped me clear my mind and move forward.

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 2:35 pm

    And the other eye

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 2:36 pm

    I am pretty sure Oil of Oley doesn’t do that even with a truck of cream unloaded and spread over the face… Please note that the above is a 5 minute result…

  • Perry

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 2:39 pm

    @Dreamer77 - thanks for your comments and insight. I’ll give you a bit more of mine on the subject of actives. Feel free to skip it but your posts have just inspired a little reflection of my own.

    I don’t believe there are high end actives that are proven to do anything particularly special. In fact, if these ingredients actually worked as advertised they would be illegal drugs in the US, but let’s ignore that for the moment.

    I have been in the cosmetic industry for multiple decades and have seen numerous raw material suppliers bring around all kinds of actives that are supposed to work as well as botox, restart hair growth, magically give you porcelain skin or whatever. And these aren’t cheap ingredients. $15K per KG, sure. If they can get some sucker to pay that, they are doing their job well.

    But I also know this, these actives are invariably BS marketing stories. When asked for the science, it’s either not provided or the stuff that is provided isn’t science. It’s pseudoscience designed to look like science but is actually designed to bets market an ingredient. There are innumerable tricks companies can pull to make their “active” ingredient look like it is doing more than a blend of petrolatum, glycerin, and mineral oil.

    Science is not about proving what is true. It is about proving what is not true. Only after numerous failed tests to disprove a hypothesis can you say something is true. Selling cosmetics & raw materials however, is about proving what you want to be true as true & ignoring anything that might contradict your proof. This is not science and it is not convincing to people who are interested in what is true.  

    I’ve read the literature and studies on a vast array of peptides. I don’t find the data or studies convincing. I realize there are scientists who are convinced but most of these people either haven’t taken a critical look at the evidence or they have a bias in wanting it to be true (e.g. trying to sell the ingredient or a formula with said ingredient). 

    You are convinced that peptides have an effect? Why?  (And I’ll address this to anyone else who is also convinced…what evidence am I missing about peptides as active ingredients?)

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 3:08 pm

    Perry I really enjoy reading your posts, I have been following you for quite some time now already, even before I joined in over here, if I am not mistaken I must have read some of your  articles pubblished on ULProspector as well.

    You are quite right you know on what you are saying, however, my approach on creating formulas is not just make the cream add a fancy peptide or more add a perfume and that’s it. I am after the result of usage.

     Personally I have evolved during my course of emulsion making. I have started all that thing by trying to cure someone out of psoriasis, knowing nothing regarding the illness whatsoever, I was just trying to impress her (she was a female that I liked and found this way to approach her). On psoriasis I had no real luck, however thought my research I have discovered and evolved formulas that can actually cure other skin disorders, never pubblished anything innparticular out of fear of being destroyed by traditionally strong players (aka the drug industry).

    Anyway, on this particular formula that we are talking about I have included quasi-drug materials and actives that I have found to exist out of my personal related work.ie I am producing a tincture out of three plants, ethanolic extract. This tincture has an extremely fast wound healing property. However it is something that I create, uncertified and clinically not tested. So I did my homework and discovered certified materials clinically proven to work that are relared to my tincture, they are not as efficient as my personal product but they do the work that I am after.

    I am not a victim of the marketing, Perry, you may be thinking of that as you do not know anything about me, I am a pharmacist trying different stuff. I could go on and on talking about my work and formulas however I am not here for that.

    For me most peptides work, I carefully study their clinical trials before applying them, this face formula of mine however is not just peptides, its chemistry combined with humal physiology, not just another peptide cream. I have managed to freeze time with that combo I have made and my only concern is to make it even more efficient. As it is now its a face emulsion that one try is enough to create the desire to buy it, I sell it on a glass jar with no label on it, which is cheap and costs $1, however the result is such that the buyer keeps coming back and so on, no advertising and no fancy packaging…

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 3:26 pm

    Yeap, problem solved…no shift in colouration, I removed it from the “oven” and let it cool down on room temperature, no colouration of any kind…not the slightest change of any kind!!!

  • Microformulation

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 7:01 pm

    How long was it in stability? Generally in my experience it can take up to the second or even third 28-day testing periods to see oxidative changes.

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 9:50 pm

    Perry was right, it wasn’t oxidation, it couldn’t be anyway, the active ingredient I mentioned above has to be responsible for the colour shifting, it presents some sort of incompatibility with the gelling agent, an incompatibility that I cannot explain.

    Tested it alone with the gelling agent, mixed it with water, then added the gelling agent and the water based gel was created, however in the beginning the colour was light yellow, as time passed it turned into dark brown… I just finished formulating again excluding it from the formula, I am pretty sure that the problem is resolved now.

    I left it in the oven in temperature of almost 60C so as to accelerate things a bit more, I don’t have the time to wait for it to change colour on its own.. I am going to send samples of the formula to my female testers tomorrow.

  • Perry

    Member
    April 6, 2021 at 9:52 pm

    Dreamer77 said:

    I am pretty sure Oil of Olay doesn’t do that even with a truck of cream unloaded and spread over the face… Please note that the above is a 5 minute result…

    I wouldn’t be so sure…

    But the reality is that before and after pictures are junk science. They aren’t good proof of anything. In both your pictures and the ones highlighting the Olay product, the lighting is completely different in each picture. 

    It’s simple to create an illusion of an effect just by using different lighting. 

    This is why I don’t find before and after pictures compelling.

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 7, 2021 at 1:51 am

    Well, my before and after photos were done by me in the same room with the same lighting using the exact same cellphone with no filters applied.

    I had no real intention to show off my product but I feel I must share this info with you, the results I am having about two years already testing, enhancing and improving the formula. 

    Sure thing lighting makes a real difference on before and after photos but here even though lighting might not be the same wrinkles dissapear and faces look calm and lighting has nothing to do with it.

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 7, 2021 at 1:52 am

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 7, 2021 at 2:13 am

    And please note, the above pics are 5-10 minutes after 1st application, not 2 weeks. All photos were sent to me by the users and are selfies. Personally I do not approve that as the camera used for selfies is a low quality one that tends through software to present images more beautiful and flawless than they really are. I work with photos taken with the high quality camera found on the back side of the cellphone, without using any filters, taken indoors with artificial lighting.

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 7, 2021 at 2:19 am

    I have many photos, before and after of the botox cream (that’s what I call it temporarily) I used a small sample of photos where I know that I have permission to use them. And this represents only a small part of what my products do. The funny thing now that the problem is solved is that I have to reduce the % of the perfume used as now it smells really strong. No big deal however. 

  • Dreamer77

    Member
    April 7, 2021 at 2:22 am

    After seeing the photos you post Perry a single thought swirls into my mind….God I should be living in America, I would be rich by now….

Page 1 of 3