[Graillotion]

“Broad Spectrum” is a marketing term.  Not a scientific term.   

Lesson #2 in cosmetics:  NEVER trust the marketing material produced to sell you ingredients.  

Regarding Vitamin E

There is a video in this link that does a good job at helping understand Vitamin E, inclusion and forms.

Please list your form of E…as ‘oil’ tells us nothing.  

How to Make Cosmetics with Vitamin E Antioxidant (ulprospector.com)

For chelator, EDTA is of course the best, but some people will also use sodium phytate, or GLDA /  TSGD (the latter two are a little more biodegradable.) Any of them are monumentally better than…nothing.  

(Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate)

[Graillotion]

Oh wow…

The BIG first…you are using a preservative that does not function well (probably at all) at the pH you have!

So lower the pH with citric or lactic acid to about 4.8.

You forgot your chelate.

You forgot the humectant….start with glycerin.

Dimethicone will alleviate the soaping.

Cut vitamin E in half.

Give that a shot….and see how it turns out.  

But KUDOS for knowing your pH!!!

[Graillotion]

Anca_Formulator said:

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@Graillotion: Thank you for sharing your source. Funny, the bulk Caprylyl Glycol I found was also from MakingCosmetics

So you’ve used Hexanediol CG in emulsions? How did it affect the viscosity? 

I use that in every formula…just part of what I call…the structural bones.  All my formulas tend to have the same structural bones, and I just hang different ornaments on them.

 As I am using the combo at a low rate (.5%), I have not noticed a viscosity decrease, albeit I have not made a formula with and without.  So, since it is one of my building blocks from the beginning of each formula, and the thickeners are built around it… I have never had that ‘introductory moment’ where it is introduced into the formula…and I go…’dang’.

I also use a pretty elaborate grouping of emulsifiers, and this may also have an effect…in that there is not just one or two players doing all the work.

I also use a number of thickeners that take time to show their viscosity, so I never know final viscosity until a day or two later.

As I love many of my viscosity builders…I am usually fine tuning a formula, by having to reduce my loves…. myristyl myristate, cetyl palmitate, behenyl alcohol, polymerics and squalane wax…and many of their friends.

[Graillotion]

ozgirl said:

This might be useful.

https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/cosmetics-labeling/cosmetic-ingredient-names

That label would not be correct because it doesn’t specify if it is an oil or an extract etc.

e.g. Jojoba should probably be listed as Jojoba Oil or Jojoba (Simmondsia Chinensis) Oil.

Is Rosemary the essential oil or the oleoresin or an extract.

Hehe….that label….so many issues…poor example.

I did view all links you both sent, prior…. I just could not get an explanation of ‘common name’.  With my background….common name…is always the Latin name.  But my background is not cosmetics.  

[Graillotion]

I guess I am still confused… as a plant breeder… the “common or usual names” of plants…are all in Latin (to me).

Depending on the audience the FDA is addressing….”common or usual names” might very well be Latin?

So…I grabbed a INCI off of Amazon…some Paula’s Choice something….Look at the blue….that is how I would label something….If this is NOT required…why are they doing it???

@jemolian and @ozgirl

[Graillotion]

So, I guess it boils down to …. If the FDA is addressing the scientific community…than common name would mean…the latin name, as that is what that community would commonly use.

If the FDA is addressing the ‘lets make cosmetics in our kitchen’ crowd…then common name would mean….street language.

What do they mean, with ‘common name’?

[Graillotion]

Based on their understanding….this is a viable INCI…. Common names.

[Graillotion]

Anca_Formulator said:

I can only find Caprylyl Glycol in bulk, but I did find a smaller size Caprylyl Glycol EHG (includes 27-33% ethylhexylglycerin). 

Since Euxyl PE9010 already contains EHG, what percentage should I include it at to replace it in this preservative system

1% PE9010 + 0.35% Sodium Benzoate +2% Pentylene Glycol + 0.2% Phytic acid + 0.3% Caprylyl glycol?

I was thinking 0.45%? That would replace the 0.3% and add an additional 0.14%  EHG (roughly) to the formula. Does that work?

Thank you
 

You can use the source I use for CG:

Hexanediol CG | MakingCosmetics

Granted it come with some hexanediol, but I don’t think anyone will complain about that (just one more good booster).    I use that at .5% as part of a larger hurdle system,…which should give you about .25% of each.

[Graillotion]

Squinny said:

Can one you (maybe Mark?) advise what is a good antioxidant to use in an emulsion (say face cream) rather than including Tocopherol and at what % - or isnt there any point putting one in? What about Rosemary Antioxidant as well?
Or should you put an antioxidant into a bottle of Oil such as Grapeseed, Sunflower etc once you open the bottle? Or doesnt this make a difference either. Thanks for your help on probably stupid questions but would like to know for future concoctions I make for myself. I also keep most my oils in wine fridge at about 6 to 10 degrees (as standard room temp where I live is around 25 degrees Celcius year round and humidity between 45 and 65. Cheers and thanks again

You seem to have two questions….antiOx for a cream…and adding antiOx’s to your oils prior to use.

So, first understand…AntiOx’s work in the phase they are soluble in.  Hence in a cream…if you want a full spectrum…you use both oil and water soluble AntiOx’s (The E and Rosemary will only we working in the oil phase).  If you only concern is protecting the oils…then you have already listed the two best.  If you really want to take it to the very edge…add some Ascorbyl Palmitate, as that is supposed to turbo-charge the MT-E.

As far as your oils….My program is….refrigerate, keep out of light, once opened, I give them a half rate of the MT-E and Rosemary Extract….then repeat the process with a half rate…once they go into formula.

Aloha.

For those down under…use this:  17 ml Vitamin E Natural - 50% Mixed Tocopherols - New Directions Australia 

[Graillotion]

MattTheChemist I have a sclerotium/xanthan blend on hand (ActigumVSX20), but do you think Solagum AX is best with Zen?

Well…much like the polymerics…I also did the water and gum only combos….and that is the one that I chose.  As you can guess…Pharma always takes me to the molecular level…and he feels that the Acacia does what gums do…at an elevated level… (not talking about haptics, but strengthening the emulsion).  I did not have every cosmetic gum…but a fair jag of them to look at.  I always have to evaluate…what I can actually acquire should something make it to the final formula.

[Graillotion]

If the ProDew…is your only humecant…at 2%…right…not doing much.  I use betaine at that rate 2-3% plus a host of moisture attracting friends…many of which are also at 2%.  Depending what I am making…my humectants are 6%+  and quite a bit higher…depending how you count your glycols.  Pretty much a given…I’ll have 2% of the following… propanediol, glycerol, pentylene glycol and of course the aforementioned betaine.  Even the Proline, I use at 1%.

[Graillotion]

Texture…will always be subjective.  What I like best…won’t always be what you or your client likes best.

Here is what I do…. Take just water, and the polymerics you have on hand…and make blends…both with other polymerics…and as polymeric plus carbomer blends….and sample those gels on your skin (neat).  You will have a favorite.  Don’t be surprised to find 5, 6 or 7 little bowls of gel in front of you….when the trial starts.  

As far as Aristo and Carbomer…yes, I and others believe there is a (textural) synergy there.  Try 3, 4 and 5 parts Aristo with 1 part carbomer.  I use a pre-neutralized carbomer…so these experiments can be created is a matter of a couple of minutes.

Regarding the gums on hand…as long as you keep inclusion rates low….as Perry likes to say….no one (other than me) is gonna notice.   

[Graillotion]

Easy one to answer:

Imagine a formula….create a water phase with correct ratios…making sure to include all possible antagonist.  Then mix in your Aristoflex AVC…and you will pretty much instantly….(not more than a minute)…see if they are getting along.  (No need to make the oil phase…or the emulsion…just see what happens in the water phase.)

Maybe make just a batch of water and Aristoflex…in correct formula ratios…so you have something to compare against (viscosity and texture).

Luckily Pharma taught me that…the disagreement will show itself instantly….vs something that manifests itself 6 months down the road.

And let me tell you….if they disagree….you have nothing! (No guessing)  This is why you do NOT make the full emulsion…as it might hide the fact the AVC is not functioning. 

(Anything with the word ‘sodium’ in the name (item 2 & 3)…is probably gonna give it grief, unless using very small amounts.)  I can pretty well assure you…….AVC will probably not work in the formula as listed.   Zen might handle that…but you could try the same test parameters.

I think among the commonly used polymerics…Zen has some of the better tolerances.  It does git a bit gross above .5%, so you can use it at .4-.45% and add some Solagum AX at .25% and get a nice result.

[Graillotion]

If you are aware of a re-packer that sells the (L15) C15-19
Alkane…let me know.

[Graillotion]

That question cannot be answered…without knowing the pH (as your system is pH dependent.) 

[Graillotion]

The Magic…is usually… Marketing.  

[Graillotion]

I have never noticed a smell on IL, even at 100% neat.

Make sure you are using the 100% IL.  Early on, I got a sample of 90% IL, and something else…and that was just god-awful.  (Forget the name.)

[Graillotion]

Anca_Formulator said:

@Graillotion: Beautiful!  That’s just it. Thank you for sharing the fruits of your holy grail quest.

I’m also obsessed with texture. I create many many many versions of an emulsion to get the skin feel just right. The emulsifier also  plays a big role, and the gum (s). It’s a whole symphony.

I find that Brassica Alcohol gives a lovely texture in combination with a cast of emollients with different absorption rates. 

I learned about cascading emollients from SwiftCraftyMonkey (Susan Barclay Nichols)’s cosmetic blog. She has a whole 8-part series on this. Well worth the very modest monthly membership fee. I highly recommend her blog.  https://www.swiftcraftymonkey.blog/

As for distarch phosphate, yes, lovely feel. Skinchakra has several formulations using this ingredient (on her old blog:  Swetti’s Beauty Blog           https://skinchakra.eu/blog/

Anyway, here is a helpful chart that illustrates this concept. 

Hehe…. If I could get things where I like them in 30 iterations…I would feel like I did not do my due diligence…  

Where do you purchase brassica alcohol in the US?  I have had it as part of some other things…but never by itself.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

I view phenethyl alcohol…as a ‘go to’ head space preservative.  Meaning…I create a respectable preservation hurdle program, and if I have a product that needs head space preservation…the phenethyl gets added to the existing program.

 @Anca_Formulator   The easiest way I find it….is when I am on a site where I hope they sell it….just type ‘alcohol’ into the search bar….and granted you’ll get a number of products you’ll have to sort through…but at least you find where they hid the phenethyl…hehehe.

[Graillotion]

Anca_Formulator said:

I am having trouble finding Phenethyl Alcohol. @Graillotion I saw one of your older posts re. the other synonyms it may hide under, but still didn’t find it (I haven’t tried all of them yet though). I’m in the US, where did you have luck finding it at times?

It is available even on Amazon:  Amazon.com: Phenethyl Alcohol 120ml (4oz) High Purity Fragrance/Aroma Compound : Home & Kitchen

But I have mostly gotten it here:  Perfumers Apprentice - Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol

or if you want to order some exotic…hard to find ingredients…and are ordering from the Thai place: Phenethyl Alcohol, Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol (myskinrecipes.com)

As it is a huge part of fragrance making…any perfume supplier should carry it.  Funny though…sometimes hard to find on their sites….cus of so many spelling variations…and if you don’t guess theirs just right….you may think they don’t have it.

How is this for a synonym list  (This might not be accurate…not my list…and I did not double check it. )??? : ชื่ออื่นๆ: (2-hydroxyethyl)benzene, 1-phenyl-2-ethanol, 2-hydroxyethyl benzene, 2-hydroxyethylbenzene, 2-phenethyl alcohol, 2-phenyl ethan-1-ol, 2-phenyl ethanol, 2-phenyl ethyl alcohol, 2-phenylethanol, b-hydroxyethylbenzene, b-phenethanol, b-phenylethanol, b-phenylethyl alcohol, benzene ethanol, benzeneethanol, benzyl carbinol, benzyl methanol, beta-p.e.a., beta-phenyl ethanol, beta-phenyl ethyl alcohol, mellol, nat.phenyl ethyl alcohol, phenethyl alcohol nat., phenethyl alcohol natural, phenethyl alcohol turkey, natural isolated constituent, phenethylalcohol, phenethylol, phenyl ethanol, phenyl ethyl alcohol, phenyl ethyl alcohol extra, phenyl ethyl alcohol FCC, phenyl ethyl alcohol natural, phenyl ethyl alcohol USP 24, phenylethanol, phenylethanol nat, phenylethyl alcohol, phenylethyl alcohol (2-phenyl-1-ethanol), phenylethyl alcohol FCC, phenylethyl alcohol USP/NF

NOTE**  The Thai place charges the same freight for 1 gram to 500….so to maximize cost…try to order about 500 grams of different products.

[Graillotion]

Anca_Formulator said:

Hi, I was wondering what natural preservatives you find to be effective to preserve hydrosols once you open the bottle? This is a Geranium Hydrosol  with a pH of 4.26.

I used Germall in the past, but would like to give a natural preservative system a go. 

I know most suppliers of preserved hydrosols use Leucidal Liquid, but I’ve read that it is really not very effective. 

I’ve seen the suggestion of 0.05% citric acid + 0.15% postassium sorbate. Is this enough? 

I was thinking of using 1% Leucidal PE9010 + 1% Geogard Ultra + 3% natural Pentylene Glycol. Is this overkill?

Thank you. 

No point in adding leucidal…as that doesn’t do much…and brings some nasty adulterations to your product.  (They fail to list some of the goodies that put in that garbage.)

[Graillotion]

I have had the luxury of a number of amazing people spending enormous amounts of time to teach me some of the finer points of texture and even the perception of absorption.  One of my earliest lessons was how to create the depth of sensories via cascading emollience.  I would compare it to a 3D experience vs a 2D experience.  If you use a single emollient…even the ‘perfect’  one, you will get that 2D experience, and will not achieve the more satisfying sensory experience that one can accomplish with cascading emollience, that gives that little….ahhhh…or Eureka moment of an emulsion that finally got you to the next level.

I collected virtually every dry/light emollient I could get my hands on….but could not formulate them into my dreams.  However as I finally absorbed the mentoring bestowed on me, I learned to take emollients that did not seem as dreamy ‘neat’ and combine them into a sensory waterfall.  So I typically combine things like isoamyl laurate, IPM, lauryl laurate, Polymethylsilsesquioxane, D5 and waxy ester types like cetyl palmitate and myristyl myristate. 

Even the last two ingredients…I found if I split them, vs using twice as much of either one…I got a MUCH better absorbing result.

In my mind, to create that dry and emollient feel…it had to be some with the driest and lightest ingredients.  It was very difficult for me to understand that a group of emollients…absorbing at different rates…actually gave a more unique and pleasurable experience.  So with rather common emollients I have learned to surround them with teammates that brought out the best of them.  

Some of these ingredients can feel oily neat, and even make your skin shine.  I found it far easier to create a logical emollient waterfall, and then fix the shine and fine tune it with things like using behenyl alcohol instead of those that might start with ‘C’.  Myristyl Myristate is just an absolute ‘must’ for making things work for me.  Another finishing ingredient….that takes things to a level…that is almost breathtaking…is distarch phosphate.  I worked through a list of powders that can fill a room, during my deodorant project…and absolutely made a breakthrough when I came upon this Agrana product.  Another technique that I have recently mastered…is taking a porous, very fine silica, preloading it with D5, and putting this in post emulsion.  The silica is saturated with D5 in the emulsion…so does not take up other lipids.  Once it hits the skin, the D5 goes poof…..and you have very thirsty silica…looking to absorb a new host.  WOW…Eureka.

So in summary….at least for me…on my journey….it is not as much about finding that Eureka emollient….that would make dreams come true…but surrounding it with a cast of characters that could deliver the dream.  The perception of rapid absorption can be created with a cast of characters that do not all absorb at the speed of light.  The nuances you can create with distarch phosphate, certain silicas…can far outperform that ‘Holy Grail’ emollient you think you have not found yet.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

Ethylhexyl Isononanoate, Isostearyl Isostearate, and Isonoyl Isononanoate were all good….

But I ended up back with Isoamyl laurate.

I discovered it is not the individual ingredient that matters most…but far more importantly is the group performance.  I will write out my thoughts…and post shortly.  I will try to gather coherent thoughts on cascading emollience, and how a combination of varying absorption rates will feel like it absorbs the best.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

Of course some ionic surfactants help stability because of charge. 

Are you talking about Cetearyl alcohol + Ceteareth 20 or ceteareth 2 or so + Ceteareth 20 to go for HLB counting method? 

I am working with Cetearyl alcohol and ceteareth 20…. using GMS for the low end.

[Graillotion]

chemicalmatt said:

@Graillotion I’ve used that PG-3 stearate and GMS combo at 3:1 and it worked really well. Add just a small amount of ceteareth-20 for extra stabilizing and you should be good to go. Also, using the GMS-SE will help this too.

Do you feel that a small amount of anionic like either SSG or GSC would make these emulsions even more stable….or does that just make for a long INCI?