[Graillotion]

Are you finding that the final pH is dramatically different than your water phase pH?

When are you adjusting pH?

I find very little variation between adjusted water phase pH…and final pH….Hence I adjust pH in my water phase only.  (And double check final pH.)

[Graillotion]

There a literally hundreds if not thousands of sites, where they will embrace this formula, and give you tons of ‘advice’.

Yes, you have accidently stumbled across one of the few sites where science and professionals meet.  

We do not celebrate possible injury to people but point it out.  You might enjoy other sites better, where science is not considered a hinderance to ideas.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Magnesium hydroxide mixed with sodium bicarbonate for a skin leaf-on product?

Let’s see what chemistry has to say:

Mg(OH)2 + 2 NaHCO3 -> MgCO3 + Na2CO3 + 2 H2O

Re-calculating from g to mol-fractions to adjust to your 2 + 2 g:

1.44 Mg(OH)2 + NaHCO3 -> 1/2 MgCO3 + 1/2 Na2CO3 + H2O + 0.94 Mg(OH)2

= ~1/3 of the poorly water soluble magnesium hydroxide (poor solubility is the reason why people don’t get chemical burns that easily from it) turns your ‘mild’ bicarbonate into caustic soda. Caustic soda can be used to make soap… if that’s what you want your skin to turn into, go ahead! It certainly saponifies the bacteria and stink molecules as well.

You’ll certainly find some idiotic advice online on how to get rid of scars from chemical burns (probably where you’ve found that deo seppuku concoction).

Thank you for putting this SO WELL.  I think beginners fail to realize the horrific advice they can find on the internet, and without a means to ferret through this information, they flock to it like moths to a flame.

This program has a wonderful prospect of pH burning the skin and allowing for further marketing of burn care products. 

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Pharma said:

What are you trying to create?

This doesn’t seem a healthy mixture… or rather suspension, because the magnesium salt isn’t water soluble (essential oils aren’t either, though they don’t crystalise out).

An elixer for under arm emission control… 

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ngarayeva001 said:

When I hear body butter, I think L’Occitane and Body Shop. You probably would classify both as a greasy mess, though. Maybe play with oils and thickeners. For example, behenyl alcohol instead of cetyl alcohol and IPM (something dry) as the main emollient.

Thank you.

Yesterday I stopped at a friend’s…and they had a nice one made my Vaseline, so I compared it with mine….and they were strikingly similar.  So pretty happy since I was only on iteration #2.

Yes… using all my dry tricks…. behenyl… IPM ….  distarch phosphate, Myristyl myristate and so on.

I will get sucrose esters today…and make a few iterations with that.

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kivangel said:

never ordered from MySkinRecipes - do you know if they are reliable? Thanks!

Many on this site order from there.  Yes, they are reliable, hence why she recommended them.  There are some tricks to ordering from them…..

Shipping is the same for 1 gram to 500!!!!

So, a small order will kill you.  Get as close to the 500 as you can…and shipping amortized over all ingredients becomes very reasonable.

Aloha.

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marimaster_3991 said:

Haha  A colleague told me about cetiol ultimate before, since someone here also mentioned it maybe it’s worth the shot.

Let me offer one more item to test…. albeit a little expensive.  One of my mentors received it and was pleasantly surprised.

Check this one out:

Citropol V5 from P2 Science, Inc

Hehehe…..granted they list is as a ‘natural’ alternative… I think the INCI is uglier than D5. 

• INCI Name:

   Polycitronellol Acetate (and) Undecane (and) Tridecane

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natiyo123 said:

can you suggest some of these ingredients?

Does your formula contain water?  This will determine some of what can be used.

The decalact deo from Evonik mentioned above is a good addition, but for me…is not a ‘stand alone’.  If you live in the US….it is sold by FSS.

Are you formulating a high pH deo, or low pH deo….this of course will also determine what you can pair.

[Graillotion]

Nope.

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moomin said:

Let me clarify:

I want to make the deodorant as natural as possible, magnesium hydroxide occurs in nature as the mineral brucite, whereas most lactic acid is synthetic, I could try and make my own but doesn’t seem very practical. So ethically i’ve chosen magnesium.

The problem that I’m currently having is that I can’t seem to calculate the pH in the magnesium properly which means it’s not working great, it does get rid of the smells for a while but then stops working throughout the day. Is there a way to calculate the pH that I’m not understanding? I know it’s the concentration of ion but to be honest I’m struggling with it?

Hope this makes more sense?
Thanks

I don’t think I can help.

I formulate based more on the celebration of advances in science, vs what I can mine in the backyard.  

I think you will find the pH of BS and Mag H rather similar.  The only reason one is considered less harsh…is how it responds when meeting skin/moisture.  One releases all at once….and one is a little more timed release.  But both are still the wrong pH for skin.

The reason your mag effect is short lived…. your skin immediately upon application…tries to change that horrible pH you exposed it to and works to getting the pH back down.  A natural process.  On the other end of the spectrum…if you go low pH (the one your skin likes), you can regulate the pH drift with ingredients like triethyl citrate, which will keep to pH low over an extended amount of time.

Good luck.

[Graillotion]

As with any allergen, some will have a response, and many will not.  You can create the same result with ingredients that have a lower chance of an allergic response.

You just decide how many responses are acceptable and formulate with that in mind.

[Graillotion]

Before you get too far down the road…. Study your skin…learn about the pH of your skin.  Then look at the pH of the two ingredients you listed.  Then think about it. 

Good luck.

Why Deodorant with Baking Soda is Bad for You | Lume Deodorant

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Squinny said:

Interesting - The Skin Cancer Australian Council sunscreen only lists the Active Ingredients (not inactive) and the preservative. I would have thought there would be a full ingredients on the bottle list but there isnt. Maybe they dont need to and dont want to show all the cheap ingredients they use (ie mainly water)? I find it a bit weird as all cosmetic type lotions and creams all have to have a fill list here.
Sunscreens | Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA)

Ingredients on labels

All active ingredients must be declared on the labels of therapeutic sunscreen in Australia.

Sorry….there was one more pic….that I should have included, but I was more interested in the alphabetical listing of the inactives.

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Microformulation said:

No.

I didn’t think so…but I don’t mess with either sunscreen… or the rest of the world (other than Korea).

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niecie2k said:

Yes, the 2nd test was not grainy

Good….got a smoother product…and rid of a horrific ingredient (for skin at those levels).

I don’t usually pass off marketing propaganda as science….but here is a decent explanation on the concept.  Each time you read the word BS… you can sub in the word mag…. Mag is just slightly less hostile than the BS. 

Why Deodorant with Baking Soda is Bad for You | Lume Deodorant

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Are you also saying….(I was not quite clear….) does ‘worked fine’ also mean…it is no longer grainy? 

[Graillotion]

niecie2k said:

Ahhhh, ok….I actually learned something new and I really appreciate that.  That’s what I come here for so thank you!  I had no idea that this is why magnesium hydoxide was used.  I’ve only heard that it “combats odor”, but nothing as well explained as what you’ve provided.   I actually  made the deodorant again sans the preservative and the magnesium hydroxide.  As far as the glyceryl stearate, I left it in because I want to make sure the glycerin and lactic which are both water soluble, don’t  precipitate out of the stick.  As far as PH, yes, the lactic on my underarms, hopefully will have the effect I want.  I’ve actually had it on all day and I’m still fresh as a daisy with  no irritation so I think I’m good.  

I use lactic in my deo to lower my pH to a target of 4.3.  But this only take ‘drops’, not percentages…   I make an emulsified deo, as my pits are very sensitive.  Think of an elegant face cream….but for the pits.  

Yes, removing the conflicting ingredients …. should make it perform better than it ever has before.

BTW… pH is written…. small ‘p’ and BIG ‘H’.  It make it hard for me to read your comments. 

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Pharma said:

Will your butter be an emulsion (o/w or w/o) or be anhydrous?

To make o/w emulsions feel like a butter, you have to use lamellar structure builders, in the range of 10-20% I guess, when using sucrose monoesters as main emulsifier. GMS, fatty alcohols, and/or esters such as cetyl palmitate would be my starting point. Also, waxes and hydrogenated oils can be helpful.

For w/o GMS or any other low HLB (high HLD) co-emulsifier such as Span’s (sorbitan esters) or low N° polyglyceryl (poly-)esters.

In anhydrous formulations, I can’t see any real benefit in sucrose monoesters.

Download (and read) Sisterna Formulation Guide 2020. However, their sample body butter requires sucrose distearate, too.

Honestly, I wouldn’t use sucrose monoesters for that project!

Thank you…. Yes, an emulsified o/w body butter… you know I could handle the ‘grease’ of an anhydrous one.    Yes…it will have the squalane wax and Cetyl palmitate….plus friends.

You might like this one…lots of Mac nut oil (well…lots for my formulas).

[Graillotion]

I don’t work in this area…. But I am familiar with a supplier that carries lots of products for this segment, and maybe you are already familiar with them….. but maybe a good place to start.

TKB Trading, LLC Indie Beauty Supplies since 1997

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niecie2k said:

I understand what you are saying and thank you for your thorough explanations and time.  Yes, I actually  have a spreadsheet with all my  hundreds of ingredients and their PH is included in the information but I figured that no matter what the PH of all my ingredients combined was, the lactic would bring the final PH down. 

The whole point of the Mag…is the same as the lactic…except opposite ends of the spectrum.  Lactic provides a low pH that the odor causing bacteria do not appreciate.  Mag is the same concept….other end…. It creates a VERY HIGH pH, which bacteria do not appreciate.   Hehehehe…so you cannot have both your cake and eat it too (both being effective in the same formula).  Mag was used simply to replace an even more hostile ingredient…Baking Soda.  

If you think much about skin, acid mantel etc…. you will quickly discover you can do things a better way.

BTW…since your formula is anhydrous….how are you measuring your pH…since that number is critical!?

You are playing with scary and unmeasurable pH’s.  As you remove the mag…the pH will plummet, to possibly hostile levels.

Good luck on the journey.

[Graillotion]

niecie2k said:

Ahhh interesting.  Magnesium & Lactic huh?  Can u elaborate? I’d love to learn more.  I use the magnesium to combat odor & the Lactic for PH.  Are you saying that the magnesium will keep the PH low just as tge lactic does?  I use the glyceryl stearate because I was duping sure clinical solid deodorant and they use it.  Actually most solid deodorants use it and they don’t use water.  Finally, would you know why my final product was grainy?  Thank you so much.

No…I am actually saying the EXACT opposite.  Have you not researched the pH of Mg(OH)₂?  You have infighting among your ingredients….One pushing the pH down…and one trying to push it UP.

When you make a deo…you must create a ‘theme’.  Then you match ingredients to your theme.  You can’t just grab random ingredients from different concepts and patch them together.

Regarding grainy….feel your ingredients by themselves.  Then take you suspect ingredients…and do what is called a ‘knock-out’ experiment.  Remove one suspect each time…until you discover the culprit.

I was not aware that MOST deodorants use glyceryl stearate, and still am not.  

[Graillotion]

chemicalmatt said:

 As dance partners go, it may be surprising to know which one leads.

I am trying to extract some potential haptics out of the Sucrose stearate/palmitate.  However, I don’t think it is good enough by itself, so trying to prop it up with things that will give stability, while adding vs detracting from haptics.

[Graillotion]

Maybe I’m nuts…but magnesium and lactic acid…are exactly opposite themes.  I would pick a program…and stick with it.  You can’t just grab every idea from the net…and combine them.  Some don’t play well together.

Halfway looks like you tried to build an emulsion, but forgot the water?

What is the point of the preservative?  I did not see any water.  In this case, the glycerin would be self-preserved.

You have to always memba….when ingredients meet skin/sweat….they show their true colors (in this case… pH).  

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chemicalmatt said:

Hi @Graillotion, do you mean self-emulsifying GMS? I’ll assume so. My experience GSC is a superior emulsifier even to sucrose stearate. As dance partners go, it may be surprising to know which one leads.

NOT  a fan of GMS/SE…. all though I see Making Cosmetics goes that route.  I was referring to just straight up GMS.  I am not opposed to using 165 either…as I use more of that than any other emulsifier.  But if I can do the job w/o a PEG….hey more power to it.

The only reason I was thinking GMS over GSC was the spread in the HLB (which I don’t really use).  🙂

I should preface…the formula will have some gum, some polymeric, and some behenyl alcohol, the usual builders.

[Graillotion]

chemicalmatt said:

May I state the obvious: stop using Sepigel.

What would you replace it with? RAPIDGEL EZ1?