Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating General Requests / Opportunities mixing magnesium Hydroxide and bicarb of soda

  • mixing magnesium Hydroxide and bicarb of soda

    Posted by moomin on October 17, 2022 at 12:25 pm

    Hello
    I am trying to mix the above products but the mag keeps chrystallising, anyone any ideas to stop this happening please?
    thanks

    pharma replied 1 year, 1 month ago 12 Members · 26 Replies
  • 26 Replies
  • oldperry

    Member
    October 17, 2022 at 1:20 pm

    What are all the ingredients in your formula?

  • moomin

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 8:35 am

    100ml water,
    2g magnesium hydroxide,
    2g sodium bicarbonate,
    essential oils,

    Above is what is crystallising, thinking possibly measurements with the mag and bicarb being equal parts but can’t figure out?

    Thanks

  • pharma

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 8:48 am
    What are you trying to create?
    This doesn’t seem a healthy mixture… or rather suspension, because the magnesium salt isn’t water soluble (essential oils aren’t either, though they don’t crystalise out).
  • graillotion

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 9:04 am

    Pharma said:

    What are you trying to create?
    This doesn’t seem a healthy mixture… or rather suspension, because the magnesium salt isn’t water soluble (essential oils aren’t either, though they don’t crystalise out).

    An elixer for under arm emission control… 

  • pharma

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 1:08 pm
    Magnesium hydroxide mixed with sodium bicarbonate for a skin leaf-on product?
    Let’s see what chemistry has to say:
    Mg(OH)2 + 2 NaHCO3 -> MgCO3 + Na2CO3 + 2 H2O
    Re-calculating from g to mol-fractions to adjust to your 2 + 2 g:
    1.44 Mg(OH)2 + NaHCO3 -> 1/2 MgCO3 + 1/2 Na2CO3 + H2O + 0.94 Mg(OH)2
    = ~1/3 of the poorly water soluble magnesium hydroxide (poor solubility is the reason why people don’t get chemical burns that easily from it) turns your ‘mild’ bicarbonate into caustic soda. Caustic soda can be used to make soap… if that’s what you want your skin to turn into, go ahead! It certainly saponifies the bacteria and stink molecules as well.
    You’ll certainly find some idiotic advice online on how to get rid of scars from chemical burns (probably where you’ve found that deo seppuku concoction).
  • microformulation

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 4:27 pm
    @Pharma Love the solid straightforward Chemistry. The Fundamentals do come into play. Too many disregard these Chem 101 concepts.
  • graillotion

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 7:40 pm

    Pharma said:

    Magnesium hydroxide mixed with sodium bicarbonate for a skin leaf-on product?
    Let’s see what chemistry has to say:
    Mg(OH)2 + 2 NaHCO3 -> MgCO3 + Na2CO3 + 2 H2O
    Re-calculating from g to mol-fractions to adjust to your 2 + 2 g:
    1.44 Mg(OH)2 + NaHCO3 -> 1/2 MgCO3 + 1/2 Na2CO3 + H2O + 0.94 Mg(OH)2
    = ~1/3 of the poorly water soluble magnesium hydroxide (poor solubility is the reason why people don’t get chemical burns that easily from it) turns your ‘mild’ bicarbonate into caustic soda. Caustic soda can be used to make soap… if that’s what you want your skin to turn into, go ahead! It certainly saponifies the bacteria and stink molecules as well.
    You’ll certainly find some idiotic advice online on how to get rid of scars from chemical burns (probably where you’ve found that deo seppuku concoction).

    Thank you for putting this SO WELL.  I think beginners fail to realize the horrific advice they can find on the internet, and without a means to ferret through this information, they flock to it like moths to a flame.

    This program has a wonderful prospect of pH burning the skin and allowing for further marketing of burn care products. 

  • moomin

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 8:04 pm

    Thanks for all your ‘supporting’ advice! NOT! 
    Here is where I am at, I wanted to find a natural deodorant, I found a recipe that included milk of magnesia and essential oils, it worked wonderfully for me (no burns! fancy that!) and so I thought I might make something similar as a sellable product, not using milk of mag but using the stuff in it. I’m not a chemist, don’t have a clue about chemicals, hence why I’m on here, but I just didn’t realise that I would be meeting with a group of guffawing henrys, who think it’s hilarious and ridiculous that someone doesn’t understand about chemistry! well sorry I got it wrong, I misunderstood this site for support and help!

  • graillotion

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 8:10 pm

    There a literally hundreds if not thousands of sites, where they will embrace this formula, and give you tons of ‘advice’.

    Yes, you have accidently stumbled across one of the few sites where science and professionals meet.  

    We do not celebrate possible injury to people but point it out.  You might enjoy other sites better, where science is not considered a hinderance to ideas.

  • Tania_Mallic

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 8:20 pm

    I need help with cheek stain formula nobody is answering my question 

  • microformulation

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 8:42 pm
    My point is simply that you MUST learn the Fundamentals. It is at its root a site for Chemistry, a real Science. This is not dissimilar to many other vocations and even avocations. Even with good directions, without the right materials, experience and instruction, I still couldn’t make a quality mousse. In my point of view at least, this site shouldn’t be a “Cosmetic Chemistry” google site where you get an answer upon demand. It is best used as a source for research and direction for your further study. Anecdotally I will tell you as a Chemist I am far more likely to answer a question with “what has your research shown already” than a simple answer. This is just the mentoring style I was exposed to and even thrived in.
  • microformulation

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 8:46 pm

    I need help with cheek stain formula nobody is answering my question 

    You may need to wait a day or so for a response. People check in periodically and your question was just posted.
  • paprik

    Member
    October 18, 2022 at 10:23 pm

    moomin said:

    Thanks for all your ‘supporting’ advice! NOT! 
    Here is where I am at, I wanted to find a natural deodorant, I found a recipe that included milk of magnesia and essential oils, it worked wonderfully for me (no burns! fancy that!) and so I thought I might make something similar as a sellable product, not using milk of mag but using the stuff in it. I’m not a chemist, don’t have a clue about chemicals, hence why I’m on here, but I just didn’t realise that I would be meeting with a group of guffawing henrys, who think it’s hilarious and ridiculous that someone doesn’t understand about chemistry! well sorry I got it wrong, I misunderstood this site for support and help!

    I am sorry if you feel this way.
    However, you must realise we are not a bunch of mommy bloggers. We deal with real life scenarios and issues. We do use real science here. And if we see a problem, we deal with that in that way.

    We do help for free, only for our good feelings and some people abuse it. 
    Try to take the advise from a different angle and approach your problem with all the help you got. Or describe your problem in different way. 

    Happy and safe formulating. 

  • ketchito

    Member
    October 19, 2022 at 12:08 pm

    I need help with cheek stain formula nobody is answering my question 

    @Tania_Mallic I saw your original post, but you need to provide more information about your formula, in order to get some advice 👍

  • pharma

    Member
    October 19, 2022 at 2:03 pm

    moomin said:

    Thanks for all your ‘supporting’ advice! NOT! 
    Here is where I am at, I wanted to find a natural deodorant, I found a recipe that included milk of magnesia and essential oils, it worked wonderfully for me (no burns! fancy that!) and so I thought I might make something similar as a sellable product, not using milk of mag but using the stuff in it. I’m not a chemist, don’t have a clue about chemicals, hence why I’m on here, but I just didn’t realise that I would be meeting with a group of guffawing henrys, who think it’s hilarious and ridiculous that someone doesn’t understand about chemistry! well sorry I got it wrong, I misunderstood this site for support and help!

    So, telling people to not do something in order to avoid getting injured isn’t supporting advice? What then? I’m not laughing either… I’m telling you loud and clear: Don’t do it!
    Or are you expecting something like: Simply add apple cider vinegar to get the stuff dissolved? Well, sure, do that, it will work (it also makes your concoction less dangerous).
    If you would have read my reply without switching of your wits the instant you saw a chemical formula, then you would have seen that I’ve told you that magnesium hydroxide (milk of magnesia is a trademark by Bayer) may work without causing too much harm because of very poor solubility. And that also explains why you will always have a precipitate (you can’t dissolve a rock in water unless you change it chemically… and then it’s no longer considered a rock).
    BTW the older magnesium hydroxide gets, the more it turns into magnesium carbonate. Maybe you’ve got mostly that.
    Why on earth do people touch and even mix chemicals without some basic knowledge of chemistry and the stuff they’re handling? You’re not eating berries and mushrooms you find in the forests but which you don’t know, right?
    How comes you think about selling a cosmetic product when you don’t know the basics of cosmetics and human skin physiology? What you’re planning on doing is lacking any due diligence, is highly negligent, and potentially dangerous. A splash of your brew into the eyes can damage them permanently within seconds.
    You’ve probably never heard of ‘pH’. That’s something very useful… it doesn’t just tell you how dangerous something may be but also how badly it will damage your skin barrier (the acid mantle and sebaceous layer) and your skin microbiom.
  • squinny

    Member
    October 20, 2022 at 12:44 am

    moomin said:

    Thanks for all your ‘supporting’ advice! NOT! 
    Here is where I am at, I wanted to find a natural deodorant, I found a recipe that included milk of magnesia and essential oils, it worked wonderfully for me (no burns! fancy that!) and so I thought I might make something similar as a sellable product, not using milk of mag but using the stuff in it. I’m not a chemist, don’t have a clue about chemicals, hence why I’m on here, but I just didn’t realise that I would be meeting with a group of guffawing henrys, who think it’s hilarious and ridiculous that someone doesn’t understand about chemistry! well sorry I got it wrong, I misunderstood this site for support and help!

    I think that you will find all the Chemists and other members very helpful and supportive on this forum and tell you how it is. I do have a degree (that included Chemistry, Microbiology, Organic Chemistry etc etc)  but that was so many years ago that I sometimes forget the basics and once pointed in the right direction by the wonderful people on this forum I find that I can go back to the formulation in question and fix any issues and make a better product. That is thanks to all the members here who take their valuable time to answer those of us that with less knowledge (especially in the Chemistry Dept). There are so many conditions you need to satisfy to sell products and if you don’t understand the basics of what you are trying to make I suggest you just keep making the products for yourself. Not sure where you plan to sell (or where you are) but maybe look at all the laws/rules, labelling requirements, stability testing etc. 1st as you don’t want to create a product to sell that may cause injuries (which I know you wouldn’t mean to) to others and then get sued *that is a real possibility. I make my own deodorant now (with help and advice from people on this forum) and totally changed what I was doing as it was all wrong and in the end my original formula started to be irritating to my skin. My new deo now stops the odor, is the right pH (very important) and is spray probably like you want to create.  However I only make it for my family and wouldn’t dream of making it to sell to others in case it doesn’t suit them for whatever reason (plus it is more expensive than an OTC regular one to make). I think it would be great if Perry did an online course on making deodorants as there seems to be a lot of people out there that want to make their own.

    By the way my deo also includes some Essential Oils and I use Polysorbate 20 to solubilize them. If you don’t have a pH meter I suggest you at least get some pH strips of various ranges so you can check what your pH is for your products. You may be surprised what the pH is for your deo and find it isnt what you wanted. I bought Mag Hydroxide (MgOH2) to use in my original and have since ditched that one and will be throwing out the MgOH2 unless I find another use for it. The Spray I make is now around pH 3.8 which my pits love. There are some other threads on thus forum regarding Deo’s so maybe check them out too as you will likely find you may change your concept too.

    I hope you don’t take offense to my post but sometimes it is good to sit back and take notice of other people’s comments (especially the professionals) as they help you look at what you are making in a better light and pass on their knowledge for free (which is a such a gift). You dont need a Chemistry degree to make products but having some knowledge on how and why something works the way it does is a good thing and will only help you improve your products for the future. Cheers

  • dr-catherine-pratt

    Member
    January 4, 2023 at 8:14 pm

    Moomin firstly listen to Microformulation, and Everyone is trying to find a natural or organic deo in many forms that actually work & can replace Aluminum. So once you learn some chemistry get in line and start research because we are all trying to find the holy grail that will replace Al. 

  • dr-catherine-pratt

    Member
    January 4, 2023 at 8:26 pm

    Moomin secondly, do not treat Perry & the volunteer chemists like a call centre expecting instant answers to questions that are actually so far above your head that it’s not worth our time & effort to explain. 

    Abusing a group of volunteers is a low act. Just like volunteer firefighters they do not expect to be insulted. 
    If you would like to learn and be educated to formulate a product like this Perry has your answers. He is a very knowledgeable and amazing human that also does a lot of free work and fundraising for the community. Treat him with respect please.
    Thankyou

  • fareloz

    Member
    January 5, 2023 at 12:00 pm

    moomin said:

    Thanks for all your ‘supporting’ advice! NOT! 
    I thought I might make something similar as a sellable product, not using milk of mag but using the stuff in it. I’m not a chemist, don’t have a clue about chemicals

    You are wrong. The fact that you are not a chemist and don’t know basic chemistry, but you want to sell your DIY product is actually ridiculous. Skincare is not food. 

    moomin said:

    I misunderstood this site for support and help!

    Indeed, this forum is for people who is real professional and work in skincare field as chemists. Or for passionate people having skincare formulations as their hobby. All of them spent a lot of time to read and learn.
    The reason you get such answers is just because you think that making a product is just as easy as to chop a salad. This is insulting for people who spend years and a lot of effort to get education in this field.

  • microformulation

    Member
    January 5, 2023 at 4:47 pm
    Great points all around. I will say that in many cases I will read through the Forum and have an answer readily available to many/most of the posts. However, I don’t answer unless the OP has shown that they have engaged in some research of their own also. Too many see this as a “Call Center” (good analogy Dr. Pratt) to post quick questions.
    Cosmetic Chemistry is a HUGE subject that spans multiple other disciplines as well. It requires continual learning. I would wager that most Professional Chemists follow several Journals, blogs, and will watch numerous webinars. If you want to succeed, you need to establish the Fundamentals and research using good sources, NOT GOOGLE.
    Simply, you will get more from this Forum if you pursue a great deal of independent study and seek mentorship from Professionals. Asking for specific, targeted, and involved information (Call Center) really begins to become paid work BUT more importantly is a barrier to Professional Development. 
  • RocketDog

    Member
    January 7, 2023 at 1:43 am

    Pharma said:

    Why on earth do people touch and even mix chemicals without some basic knowledge of chemistry and the stuff they’re handling? 

    Oh, oh! I know this one (wildly waving arm)! It’s the Dunning-Kruger effect, right? Or as we used to say in graduate school, “it’s takes some bit of competence to recognize your own incompetence.” 

    (And that’s what you all get for letting a psychologist in here.) 

    -Rocky

  • pharma

    Member
    January 7, 2023 at 6:19 am

    RocketDog said:

    Pharma said:

    Why on earth do people touch and even mix chemicals without some basic knowledge of chemistry and the stuff they’re handling? 

    Oh, oh! I know this one (wildly waving arm)! It’s the Dunning-Kruger effect, right? Or as we used to say in graduate school, “it’s takes some bit of competence to recognize your own incompetence.” 

    (And that’s what you all get for letting a psychologist in here.) 

    -Rocky

    @Rocky Looks like you got the wrong forum for a pissing contest. Go elsewhere because:
    - People like me and a handful of others share their knowledge and time worth thousands of $$ for free. Respect them and be grateful, don’t insult them.
    - I’m a PhD pharmacist with a solid background in chemistry and I did instruct students in the chem lab. I know how much knowledge and intelligence it requires and what can happen even then. It’s not waving arms for nothing.
    - I do not succomb to the Dunning-Kruger effect (or, if all humans do, I’m on the weaker affected side). I really have an IQ of around 130 and I do know the limits of my competences.
    -> If you really are a psychologist, you should know that this here it the point where you should just shut up and walk away.
  • RocketDog

    Member
    January 7, 2023 at 7:03 pm

    @Pharma - given your response I expect you might not even read this, but you totally misunderstood. I was pointing that comment in the direction of people who “touch and even mix chemicals without some basic knowledge of chemistry,” — meaning folks who have so little understanding of chemistry that they think it’s fine and safe to mix random things together. 

    It was most certainly NOT aimed at you and I regret that it apparently came out that way. I cannot even imagine why anyone would want to question your credentials or competencies. 

    I hope you will accept my apology for causing such unpleasantness for you. 

  • pharma

    Member
    January 7, 2023 at 8:53 pm
    @RocketDog Appology accepted and no hard feelings.
    I admit, I was quite pissed this morning… reading something like that (the way I understood) isn’t exactly the way you want to sip your wake-up coffee, right?
    I know that English is only my third language and that chances are there, that I might not get everything in a text (e.g. the parts, which aren’t written in words). So, obviously, I’m reading your reply and I’m glad I misunderstood and also that I didn’t write what I felt like calling you this morning. :smiley:
  • RocketDog

    Member
    January 8, 2023 at 6:36 pm

    Thanks. But I do hate knowing I ruined your morning coffee. That’s a high crime in my book.

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