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Silvia said:

Hi, what about O-Cymen-5-ol , does anyone used it as secondary or primary preservative? Or there are too many issues with it?
Also please tell your opinion about caprylyl glycol + phenethyl alccohol + potassium sorbate? Could be chlorphenesin used single in formulation? 

I use O-Cymen…but not as a sole preservative.  

It has some nice fits in different places (as a piece).  

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Define fragrance oil.  (I mean… are you using EO’s as fragrance…or using a synthetic fragrance oil?)

Extend freshness….does this mean keep from oxidizing, or you want fragrance extension (fixative)?

AntiOx’s work in the phase they are soluble in…. so you have to match your antiOx with the solubility of what you are trying to protect.

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Add a better preservation system.

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One further question…. I typically add it to formulas at 2% towards the overall emollient population.  Will increasing it beyond this level….further enhance its degreasing prowess, or have I gotten all the good out of it….at 2%?  I work under the assumption…that a mix of slightly different (cascading) emollients works better that one huge glob on a single dimension emollient.

(I realize higher rates can be used…just asking if the (degreasing) effect is compounded with additional IPM?)

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Pharma said:

@Graillotion Polyglyceryl-6 distearate and PG-3 beeswaxate are the main
emulsifiers in Emulium mellifera, that pot sitting unused on your shelf you sent me… just saying
.

Of course…isn’t that how it always works out? 

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The 

ABIL® Care 85 MB (INCI Name:

Bis-PEG/PPG-16/16 PEG/PPG-16/16 Dimethicone (and) Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride)

that @Pharma mentioned….seems to fit the bill…including available from the Thai supplier! 

Evonik even showed it in a deo formula…. so might make a good addition.  Any thoughts on it?  I would more than likely… combine it with something.

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Sometimes the best way to learn….is by doing (works well with me).

Make a simple “emulsion” using only stearic acid as the “emulsifier”.  Do not add an alkalai.  Observe and enjoy.   If what you were taught is true…then it will result in a wonderful product.

Once you’re done…and want more….research old Cold Cream formulas.   

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@Abdullah and @chemicalmatt … I was reading the propaganda (and it sounded wonderful) on the :

Polyglyceryl-6 Distearate

And even had a source lined up (Thai Place)… and then came to this line 

Optimum pH is 6, but stable between 5.5 and 10.

As this is a deo….pH must be below that…..way below that. 

Any other ideas that might fit the bill…but would love working at 4.3 pH?  And if at all possible…prefer to stay O/W.

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niecie2k said:

Would you know what % of TEA is needed to accomplish this?

Not a percentage….a pH.

I don’t recommend you go this route.

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Keemte said:

@ ketchito, pls do you have any idea of how I can deodorize oil for soap making, my soap smell awful and when I added fragrance to it, everything separated.

Buy higher quality, refined lipids.

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niecie2k said:

Can I rob your brain for a minute?  What would neutralizing the stearic do? Care to share some of that science with me?

Turns it into a stearate soap….where it can actually emulsify.  Without it…stearic is only a thickener.  Lots of misinformation on this ingredient on the mommy blogger sites.

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Joy said:

BTMS-25 or BTMS-50 feel relatively dry compared to other emulsifiers I’ve tried.

I find cationic emulsifiers too limiting.  But thanks!

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Thank you @Abdullah, and @ggpetrov … I suspect I’ll certainly have some GMS in there as part of the system.  It is part of the current system…and unlikely the source of the issue.

This caught my eye today: ABIL® EM 97 S … 

INCI Name:

Bis-PEG/PPG-14/14 Dimethicone (and) Dimethicone

What really caught my eye…. was that even though it was mainly a W/S emulsifier…it is listed as both a W/O or O/W co-emulsifier.  (I have enough D5 in the formula…that this will certainly be an asset.)

I want to stay O/W …and am wondering if this might be just the magic the Dr ordered???  Evonik touts it for the AP/Deo realm. 

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Maybe tell us what the end product is supposed to do.  I am at a complete loss.  A pain stick?

I can make no logic of the ratios.

If we know what you are trying to make….it helps with the answers.

Why does one have a preservative…and the other doesn’t?  What is the preservative?

Can you put your list….into phases?  What you have is jumbled and hard to follow.

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I see one of my fav’s in a number of oral care products… O-Cymen-5-Ol, a synthetic derivative of thymol.  I think it needs some friends…but a decent start.

@biomate did auto correct change your comment from ‘ignorance’ to ‘awareness’?

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Dimethicone and petrolatum, maybe some allantoin.

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GeorgeBenson said:

butylene glycol was my least favorite, which surprised me because it’s in almost everything, and in seemingly high amounts.

You know….it might depend on the source of BG.  I was using some run of the mill stuff….quite happily…then decided to buy one that was touted as ‘natural’ or natural feedstock….I forget….slept since then…. And it was simply HIDEOUS!

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jemolian said:

I tried at about 10% & 15%, but not sure if will be that opaque at 1-2%, probably cloudy. 

Just thinking out loud….as I made an emulsion with it today.  Granted I am generally using it at 1%….my concept is….it is what gum is in the water phase, to my oil phase.

As I looked at my oil phase today….with roughly 1% of this ingredient…it was not cloudy at all (while heated)…. NOW, this of course does not mean…that once cooled…it might not be cloudy…..but since it went into an emulsion….I never get to see the end result….other than what is posted below.     

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jemolian said:

can butter pearls increase oil viscosity without making the oil opaque or cloudy?

No. 

 

That is making an oil into a butter….somewhere near 20% inclusion…..to just bump some minor viscosity…???  What about at 1-2%?

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ketchito said:

@Graillotion Funny thing that a client recently patch tested the following:

- Shampoo w/fragrance 1
- Shampoo w/fragrance 2
- Conditioner w/fragrance 1
- Conditioner w/fragrance 2

Both shampoos and conditioners share the same formula (except for the fragrances)…and both shampoos were slightly irritant (irritation index around 0.21) while both conditioners were not irritants at all (irritation index about 0). So, same fragrances but different carriers (patch tests diluted at 2% -both shampoos and conditioners, but separately and with different subjects-). Maybe P&G was right about adding Cetyl alcohol to all their shampoos after all. 

Do I understand you correct….the conditions contain cetyl alcohol?

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion can butter pearls increase oil viscosity without making the oil opaque or cloudy?

Honestly, I do not know….I ONLY make emulsions.   You might read up on it from the mfg material on ULP.

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@amyelevens if I understand you correctly…you are trying to increase oil viscosity?  So you would need an oil gelling agent.

Why not try this, it has unlimited range….simply increase or decrease to change viscosity.  You will have to heat it in, but it will remain fluid once ambient temperature returns (unless you used too much).     A very magical ingredient, and Valerie at Simply Ingredients….well…just awesome.  All my newer formulas contain this ingredient.

Butter Pearls (simply-ingredients.com)

INCI: C10-18 Triglycerides

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion

I don’t know anything about how Leucidal is manufactured nor what its composition is.  If there is a concern, the FDA could easily inspect their facilities and test the materials/products for composition.  

I’m just guessing that if they were to have to defend their product, say in a court, they would probably not use a defense of ‘a repeated tragic spill at the mfg facility’.  I’m sure they will point at the FDA should the situation arise.  

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Paprik said:

Oh, sorry @Graillotion for this a bit off topic comment, but I just learned that Myristyl Myristate (which was recommended by many of you and I got it and use it) have rating of 5!! Shocking! Well, I do use it only at 1%, so should not be a problem, but still - Shocking  

Yes…If I recall…it has a rating of 0 …. at that level.  Some ingredients are quite remarkable….the scare tactics used, and what their actual levels are….when used in formula.

Mommy bloggers would have very little to fret about…if we took away comedogenic ratings from them. 

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion

I have never personally applied for an INCI, but I have clients who have.  So I am not certain when one applies for an INCI if it is just a paperwork exercise or if you need to present a compositional analysis of your ingredient as manufactured that is backed by appropriate analytical testing to validate the components.

In the case of someone who adulterates a product, you can simply apply for the INCI and then adulterate the product during manufacturing.  Perhaps trace compounds are considered to be processing aids.

What I meant to say….. is if you walked into their office and asked them how they justify their business model…. They would point to an FDA exclusion.  I find it hard to imagine they have not at some point….had to defend their product/practice in court?