evchem2
Forum Replies Created
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How do you incorporate the Amaze XT ( when in process, how long do you mix)?
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TEA dodecylbenzene sulfonate is an anionic detergent, I would not expect this to provide conditioning benefits. Can you remove this and try again?
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What surfactants are you currently using and are you using any polymers?
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It would sink
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Does this happen if you leave out menthol?
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Remove the glycerin and see if your foam improves at all, there’s no real benefit to including it in wash-off and it can diminish foam. Abdullah’s recommendation of 3:1 ASM is good and should help you on cost a little (assuming your CAPB is more expensive than SLES). Some polymers can help with foam stability as well (HPMC comes to mind first), but not sure you want to include them as they would increase cost/ processing.
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Increasing xanthan gum makes sense- 0.1% is not enough to really contribute, and it may not hydrate as fully in a nut-milk based system. I hope this is for personal use only?
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Would the polyquats provide enough suspension/ viscosity? and also potentially form coacervates that would entrap the silicones and further stabilize?
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Agreed with other comments here, we don’t know why you are excluding carrageenan (is it high cost, processing difficulties, performance or supply inconsistency?) so recommendations may not be as helpful. You can use other gelling polysaccharides like low-acyl gellan gum or pectin.
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Can you share your process/order of addition? When do you add gums vs surfactants; how long do you give to hydrate?
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what’s the final pH of your dishwash? Do you add natrosol after surfactants are added to water?
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Where to get sodium alginate depends on your region and volumes you plan to purchase- are you making something at home as a hobbyist or for professional use?
for the hobbyist: https://modernistpantry.com/products/sodium-alginate.html
for manufacturing: several different options, FMC biopolymer/ kelco used to be large sources , but currently JRS, BASF supply.
As for the formula, you can find free formulations on the following sites (may or may not have algin):
https://chemistscorner.com/where-to-find-free-cosmetic-formulas/
People don’t generally give out free custom formulations on this forum, if you are looking to hire a formulator for development :
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I assume the order you wrote is order of addition, are you heating at all and how long do you mix before adding next ingredients? Does this system look uniform initially and you see this separation over some time (how fast) and at room temperature or elevated?
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what’s your final pH? Is your HEC coated?
Ex Natrosol (Ashland’s HEC) recommends formulation pH between 4-10. Do you know the pH of the benchmark?
Why add the solubilizers?
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Is it possible for you to dilute batch 21 (I would make the dilution based on the 3rd ingredient, you’d need to take ~41% of 21) with water and the other ingredients added back in sufficient quantity to reach the same % as 22?
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What kind of gum? Ionic gums (ex xanthan) generally hydrate better in low ionic strength environments, I’d suggest adding them early in the water phase (after a chelator if including) and using a dispersant (such as glycerin again if including that in your formula). You can probably get away with adding the gums later in the process depending on which one it is and it’s role in the formulation (Ex do you need viscosity from something like xanthan gum or just conditioning/deposition from some cationic guar), but you may not be getting the best performance with it.
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I think that costs sounds high, but the run/fill size is likely a big factor in why they are placing cost at that level, especially if they had to order unique ingredients for the run at high MOQ. Anhydrous formulas are more expensive in general, water as the main solvent is cheap in comparison.
Is this cost for formulation alone? Are you asking for any claim validation or specific testing, or help with fulfillment (especially if going international where regulations differ)? Are you asking for quick timeline? There are plenty of factors that can increase cost that have less to do with the formula itself and more with the holistic manufacturing process.
To me as a lab monkey, stability testing is part of the development process, though we often had it itemized separately (you’d have to ask a salesperson why). They may also place an additional charge if you require stability testing outside their normal conditions.
Short answer is CM will charge whatever price they can, the smaller you are the less leverage you have in negotiating price.
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You probably need to provide more information- did you have equivalent mix energy from lab scale to production? That’s the most likely culprit in my eyes. Did you change raw materials lots/sources, order of addition, or rate of cooling? Also when are you checking the viscosity, sometimes it can take a day or two to reach final levels
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Can you clarify what you mean by ‘solid detergency’?
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Adding polymer like xanthan or HPMC can help reduce drainage and might give the foam a ‘stiffer’ look by leaking water more slowly?
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Maybe if you use high MW cationic guar? I would suggest adding the gums early (first if possible) since ionic gums like xanthan or cationic guar tend to hydrate better into low ionic strength environments. So use your glycerin to premix with the gum and create a slurry, then add into your water + chelator, then proceed to add surfactants
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You can take a look at this patent
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thanks for your response. I have seen that is typical for many descaling products, but my understanding is that the lower the pH the more each of these acids exists in protonated form, making them less efficient as sequestrants. I think phytic acid sounds like a good option, just wanted to see if there were any others or additional things to consider.
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I can’t speak much to performance and I don’t work on haircare much, there are some other chemists on this site that can answer better than me in those aspects.
General recommendations I’ve seen are to hydrate those materials into water solutions either early in water phase (especially if using for final product viscosity), or as a premix to be incorporated to the end of the process (typical for lower molecular weights)
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This site contains safety data on many cosmetic ingredients and often reports use levels of the ingredients in different applications