Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Just academic science or is it being applied in formulas?

  • Just academic science or is it being applied in formulas?

    Posted by quimico2 on August 8, 2023 at 7:04 pm

    Hi All, I’ve been immersing myself in the research on retention of anti-dandruff agents (like pyrithione zinc, piroctone olamine) on the scalp in the application of shampoos and there’s some fairly complex formulation technology involved if you read the research. That’s the theoretical part. Given the fact shampoos have a lot of other considerations that must be met (great texture, nice smell, good amount of foam, wash off well, do not dry out the hair etc.), and many companies talk largely about their focus on ingredient use (e.g non-irritating, or certain natural inclusions), I’m starting to suspect that maybe most anti-dandruff formulas are not using complex formulation efforts to specifically retain the agents, and the resulting formulations are nice shampoos, which simply contain the agents in a way that the agents incorporate well into the formulas.

    I’m happy to be proven wrong, and would love to hear from any formulators who have done formulating for anti-dandruff shampoos?

    As an example, in the below formula, which is a 2-in-1 shampoo that is performing well in the anti-dandruff market, it looks like a nice shampoo formula but have special techniques really been used (e.g. coacervation)?

    Water (Aqua), Glycerin, Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate, Sodium Laurylglucosides Hydroxypropylsulfonate, Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine, Acrylates Copolymer, Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Extract, Phenoxyethanol, Sodium Chloride, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Sodium Hydroxide, Dipotassium Glycyrrhizate (Licorice Root Extract), Panthenol, Ethylhexylglycerin, Citric Acid.

    Active: zinc pyrithione

    • This discussion was modified 8 months, 1 week ago by  quimico2.
    ketchito replied 3 weeks ago 5 Members · 14 Replies
  • 14 Replies
  • ketchito

    Member
    August 8, 2023 at 10:59 pm

    That formula doesn’t look like a good example. Along with the anti-dandruff active, you need solid detergency (that’s when SLES and SLS play very well), among other things. Nevertheless, why do you think a coacervate won’t be formed in that formula? SLMI has a bit of more charge density than SLES, so it would interact at least similarly with Guar HPTC. The type of ZPT matters for coacervation, but that is not shown.

    • evchem2

      Member
      August 9, 2023 at 9:58 am

      Can you clarify what you mean by ‘solid detergency’?

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    August 9, 2023 at 5:49 am

    To ketchito’s point, P&G’s research and application re. Head & Shoulders/Wash & Co - considerable effort re. ZPT particle size, coacervate in formula and deposition technologies go into the product.

  • quimico2

    Member
    August 9, 2023 at 6:54 am

    Some good points there, thank you. It’s nice to learn from people in the know.

    It could also be because many anti-dandruff shampoos are now made with piroctone olamine, I understand particle dissolution kinetics doesn’t play much of a role there, but perhaps the coacervation is not as important in these formulas?

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 9, 2023 at 7:43 am

    Since anti-dandruff agents are delivered by shampoos, you need them to somehow deposit. Coacervation is the main mechanism that allow anti-dandruff actives to deposit from shampoos (the ones that I know of, even Piroctone olamine). I believe though there’s more info on this for ZPT than for the other ones, both because of its particular performance, and because of P&G’s research.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    August 9, 2023 at 8:49 am

    P&G also invested heavily in Malassezia - dandruff etiology research after some folks from Pateur Institute figured out the taxonomy and biology of the relevant fungi. That was for advertising and professional “credentialing”

  • quimico2

    Member
    August 9, 2023 at 3:24 pm

    Yes there isn’t much material on piroctone olamine and coacervation.

    Ketchito and PhilGeis, have either of you developed antidandruff shampoos with piroctone olamine using coacervation?

    Or any other formulators here at Chemists Corner?

    If formulators on this forum are not skilled in this art, then maybe it’s not commonly done with piroctone. How the formulas are then made to ensure enough piroctone deposits on the scalp, hopefully it’s not just marketing claims with the right ingredients.

  • quimico2

    Member
    August 9, 2023 at 5:16 pm

    Yes these are the academic articles I’m referring to - do formulators generally actually apply this science in real life when they’re formulating antidandruff shampoos?

    Please weigh in if you’ve formulated anti-dandruff shampoo(s) with piroctone olamine 🙂

    • PhilGeis

      Member
      August 10, 2023 at 6:07 am

      This is from a formulator. Yes they do apply - and think you’ll likely find a relevant patent.

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 6:19 am

    I agree with Phil. Formulators do use this information to build formulas. The application part comes from patents, as Phil mentioned. Check those patents as reference (I recall a recent one from P&G for an anti-dandruff shampoo using Piroctone Olamine).

  • abdullah

    Member
    March 21, 2024 at 8:49 pm

    @ketchito this formula has Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine instead of CAPB. So would coacervates form in such formula?

    • ketchito

      Member
      March 22, 2024 at 9:04 am

      That’s a good question. In some tests I made in the past, Cocamidopropyl hydroxysultaine when mixed with SLES and Guar HPTC gave less amount of coacervate when compared to a formula with CAPB under similar conditions. CAPB is like a Toyota Corolla: a cheap oldie that is always reliable.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    December 15, 2023 at 7:16 am

    It’s not just the coacervate technology. Efficacy via active deposition based on physical aspects is also studied/controlled.

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