[drjaysee]

Graillotion said:

I am neither a professional nor a chemist, just a retired guy…living my dream….  but I started making things for a couple of reasons:

The woman….does a little drawing.

@Graillotion  your work is quite inspiring. How did you train yourself making all these products? Had you gone through any literature or taking knowledge from any other mode? Or did you ever join any course? As you are making pain remedy so do you have a medical or pharma background? 

[drjaysee]

Paprik said:

Any reason why you’re not including anionic surfactant? 
Could you share %?  

We don’t know if this “list of ingredients” would need a conditioning agent.
If it would, you won’t go wrong with, let’s say, Polyquaternium-7, Possibly Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride and maybe some superfatting agent (Ethoxylated lipid).

@Paprik but once you mentioned anionic and cationic react together to form insoluble content so is it appropriate to use anionic and cationic together in any formulation. 

[drjaysee]

Paprik said:

@drjayseesunish, hehe, you’re too kind  

I am faaar from being expert in anything. But so far I’ve been focusing on O/W emulsions and currently looking into foaming products. 

You can ask anything, I am pretty sure other members will happily help  

@Paprik  Please clear one doubts , why there us need of adding xanthum gum for making moisturizer skin cream where already emulsifier is doing the work of  blending water and oil phase together. Please..

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

drjayseesunish said:

drjayseesunish said:ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

PhilGeis said:

Don’t see a preservative

@PhilGeis sorry..forget to mention 
Phenoxyethanol is preservative used here.

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

@ketchito thanks a lot ketchito.
Here I want to understand if we switch to TEA for neutralize labsa but how can we get the properties of NAOH if using TEA.
Can we use a combination of NAOH and TEA?
Does propylene glycol produce same effect as of SXS? Please reply. 

@drjayseesunish When you neutralize with TEA, the resulting surfactant is more water soluble and also more degreasing than if you neutralize with NaOH. You could neutralize with both, but I’d recommend to firt use only TEA to see if your issue was resolved. Unfortunately, PPG is not as powerful as SXS, and it can also deprive your foam if used at high levels. I also see a high % of an alcohol ethoxylate. May I assume you’re formulating a concentrated liquid detergent (to be diluted)? Liquid enzymes would have been a good addition (but then you’d need to add stabilizers and redice the pH). 

@ketchito ok now I  will try to make it accordingly your suggestions. You are saviour!

[drjaysee]

PhilGeis said:

It’s EPA’s “FIFRA”  regulation - and you’re very unlikely to ever get challenged.

Preservatives in household products such as dish, clothes, cleaning detergents are regulated as pesticides and must be registered for that purpose with EPA.  Without this - it’s an unregistered pesticide.  I don’t think there’s a registered version of phenoxy.

@PhilGeis this is very new information for me. Definitely keep in mind.

[drjaysee]

PhilGeis said:

Assume this is not for sale in US?

Yes..and I am not US citizen.🙂 any suggestions? Please 

[drjaysee]

@ketchito thanks a lot ketchito. 

Here I want to understand if we switch to TEA for neutralize labsa but how can we get the properties of NAOH if using TEA.
Can we use a combination of NAOH and TEA?
Does propylene glycol produce same effect as of SXS? Please reply. 

[drjaysee]

PhilGeis said:

Don’t see a preservative

@PhilGeis sorry..forget to mention 
Phenoxyethanol is preservative used here.

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish Did you do a knockout test (with and without the ingredient) to make sure it is the polymer settling down? As @Pharma mentioned, your surfactant system might be sensitive to cold environment, and that’s what you see first as cloudiness and then as a preciputate at the bottom. For instance, if you have a sulfonate, that one tends to produce cloudiness and precipitate in some systems, especially in the presence of salt (you don’t need to add it yourself, ingredients such as CAPB carry high levels of salt). I’d be better if you mention what else is in your formula.

@ketchito please have a look upon formula

Water
NAOH..2.4%
LABSA -14%
SLES- 8%
AOS-4%
CDEA-2%
CAPB-4%
EDTA disodium-0.5%
CBSX-0.4%
Laurel alcohol ethoxylate -8%
PVP K -30 -0.25%
Sodium salt of CMC-1%
Fragrance 
Colour 
PH 10

I didn’t require salt for viscosity. 

Please tell me where I am wrong? 

@Abdullah
@Pharma

[drjaysee]

Paprik said:

If I say surfactant and emulsifier they both are, chemically speaking, surfactants. 
So surfactant can be the one that foams (cleans) and also the one that is being used in emulsions (emulsifier). Sorry if I confused you before. 

I am not an expert on pomades, but yes, I believe you would use some kind of surfactant (emulsifier) to build viscosity.
Or if you’re making W/O emulsion, you would use low HLB emulsifier. 

Paprik said:

If I say surfactant and emulsifier they both are, chemically speaking, surfactants. 
So surfactant can be the one that foams (cleans) and also the one that is being used in emulsions (emulsifier). Sorry if I confused you before. 

I am not an expert on pomades, but yes, I believe you would use some kind of surfactant (emulsifier) to build viscosity.
Or if you’re making W/O emulsion, you would use low HLB emulsifier. 

@Paprik your explanations are great. Great  teacher! Pardon me if I asked inappropriate thing, which field you are expert in? Which kind of cosmetics so I can ask you more😉

[drjaysee]

Pharma said:

PEG-based surfactants/detergents are temperature sensitive. The solution would be to either not let your product get cold or change the detergent.

You can also play with additives such as alcohol and change the amount of salt (if you have any).

Maybe check out some manufacturer’s brochures or the like.

@Pharma  I did not use salt but used
 NA-CMC polymer for viscosity and soil release purpose.  As you indiacted, should I use polythelene glycol PEG surfactant in place of it or a combination of both? Please reply. 

[drjaysee]

Pharma said:

TimMcG said:

…Can someone point me to a good resource to calculate the requirements?

If you happen to have a Windwos computer, go to the search bar (the magnifying glass usually on the lower left), type ‘calc’ and hit Enter .

Oh! What a discovery? 

[drjaysee]

Paprik said:

You need to realise that surfactant has much more stronger charge in compare to cationic gum/polymer. 
If you would mix cationic (BTMS, Cetrimonium Chloride … ) and anionic (Sodium Coco Sulfate, Sodium Cocoyl Methyl Isethionate…) they would act as magnets - cling together and would form insoluble substances. 

I said that BTMS is suitable for hair masks .. also for pomades. Along with non-ionic emulsifiers.

You usually use anionic for its cleansing ability (foaming surfactants) or emulsifying properties (emulsifiers) … 

Hope this makes more sense now?

@Paprik..understood now😄. One more thing, surfactant usually use for cleaning purpose na, not for moisturizing purpose. In pomade it is not advisable, am I  right? 

[drjaysee]

RedCoast said:

Azelaic acid can have solubility issues.

Have you done a knockout test and left out azelaic acid yet?

@RedCoast what is this knockout test? Aim and benefits?

[drjaysee]

Paprik said:

drjayseesunish said:

» show previous quotes

@Paprik thank you!

@Paprik , Is it suitable for formulation of hair mask, a leave on product? Or we can use only in hair shampoo?

---

It is very suitable in hair mask and also in leave on products. However check regulations, you usually use only little amount in leave on products. 

Shampoos are usually anionic (negatively charged) so it is not suitable to use it in shampoo at all. [You can use cationically charged gum or polymer tho .. such as Polyquaternium-7 and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride].

Happy formulating. 

@Paprik As my knowledge is not much good in formulation so please explain it to understand better..BTMS 50 cationic product but why cationic gum is preferred in hair shampoo though having similar charge?and what happen if we use as I have seen some hair mask and  pomade using BTMS 50 in their formulation?

[drjaysee]

Thank you for providing article. Both UV filters are safe for external application in comparative to organic UV filters as mentioned here in this paper unless inhalation by any means. Can you tell me what would be recommended doses of both filters in formulation?

Thanks in Advance.

[drjaysee]

Thanks a lot for valuable suggestions, ketchito😊

[drjaysee]

@PhilGeis Your answer cleared some doubts. Thanks a lot!

I have read some articles and you are the first one who told me, oxides can generate free radicles.

Just I want to know, In a formulation, we use one ingredient to target a purpose and and if, this one dealing that purpose with some other adverse effect so we can use any other ingredient to counteract this adverse effect. Similarly which ingredient we can use to minimize the effect of free radicles.

Thanks again!

[drjaysee]

Thanks a lot!

[drjaysee]

thank you

but what are important factors for formulation of sunscreen?

[drjaysee]

@PhilGeis , Thanks for your valuable suggestion. But I want to know where some brand as ORDINARY give formulation with minimal ingredients to achieve good skin care or dealing with aging, pigmentation vise versa. whereas I have found these two mineral ingredients which protect skin from UVA &UVB rays by reflecting action from skin surface so why cant we use this alone with our other skincare formulas?

I also have read, some sunscreen brand use ant irritants to dealt with skin damage by UV rays so these kind of sunscreen more harmful as their damage cant measured under the effect of anti irritant as allantoin etc.

so please help me to clear doubts.

[drjaysee]

@thejoggler Sorry, posting this here. Please tell me how to post my discussion? I found difficult for somethings in your new forum. If possible elaborate it in steps of generating new questions in this platform. With forum, Perry also changed to thejoggler 😄

[drjaysee]

@Abdullah would you like to tell me how to post our query and to where ?

I am very confused and didn’t find the way to post query.

[drjaysee]

Sorry, posting this here. Please tell me how to post my discussion? I found difficult for somethings in your new forum. If possible elaborate it in steps of generating new questions in this platform. Perry changed to thejoggler 😃

[drjaysee]

I want to get your formulation, please mail me at drjayseesunish@gmail.com