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Can BTMS-50 & Guar guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride
Hi I am trying to learn more about Cationic. Can BTMS-50 & Guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride? When I went on the website that sells both they are listed as Cationic. Can they be mixed together? Will this cause the formula to separate?
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17 Replies
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@Peta1, yes they may be used together. Disperse and hydrate the Guar HPTC first then heat to insure 100% hydration, add BTMS directly to batch at 85C to melt/mix/disperse, add a little cetyl alcohol, melt/mix, then add lipids or dimethicone if using - then cool very slowly with moderate mixing.
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@chemicalmatt thank you so much. I wasn’t sure if I am able to use 2 Cationic ingredients or even 3 together in one formula. I wasn’t sure if it would be a stable formula. I wanted to combine BTMS-50, stearalkonium chloride & Guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride.
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BTMS-50 is a surfactant (emulsifier) and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimoniumchloride is a gum. It is always a good practise to include gum in your formulas for better stability. As HPTM is positively charged it is also beneficial. So yeah, no problem there
PS. no point would be adding 2 surfactants, such as BTMS with Cetrimonium Chloride or your mentioned Steartrimonium Chloride.
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Paprik said:BTMS-50 is a surfactant (emulsifier) and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimoniumchloride is a gum. It is always a good practise to include gum in your formulas for better stability. As HPTM is positively charged it is also beneficial. So yeah, no problem there
PS. no point would be adding 2 surfactants, such as BTMS with Cetrimonium Chloride or your mentioned Steartrimonium Chloride.
@Paprik can I use bhms 50 in making skin moisturizer lotion? As you said it is surfactant.
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drjayseesunish said:Paprik said:BTMS-50 is a surfactant (emulsifier) and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimoniumchloride is a gum. It is always a good practise to include gum in your formulas for better stability. As HPTM is positively charged it is also beneficial. So yeah, no problem there
PS. no point would be adding 2 surfactants, such as BTMS with Cetrimonium Chloride or your mentioned Steartrimonium Chloride.
@Paprik can I use bhms 50 in making skin moisturizer lotion? As you said it is surfactant.
@Paprik can you explain the stearic acid , cetyl alcohal and cetearyl alcohal use in skin lotion formulation? All fatty acid and alcohal but what are standard use and conditions for it?
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drjayseesunish said:Paprik said:BTMS-50 is a surfactant (emulsifier) and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimoniumchloride is a gum. It is always a good practise to include gum in your formulas for better stability. As HPTM is positively charged it is also beneficial. So yeah, no problem there
PS. no point would be adding 2 surfactants, such as BTMS with Cetrimonium Chloride or your mentioned Steartrimonium Chloride.
@Paprik can I use bhms 50 in making skin moisturizer lotion? As you said it is surfactant.
It is a surfactant, however cationic one. Therefore it is not really suitable for hydrating products.
For standard emulsions you should use anionic and non-ionic ingredients (leave cationic ones for hair care). -
Paprik said:drjayseesunish said:Paprik said:BTMS-50 is a surfactant (emulsifier) and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimoniumchloride is a gum. It is always a good practise to include gum in your formulas for better stability. As HPTM is positively charged it is also beneficial. So yeah, no problem there
PS. no point would be adding 2 surfactants, such as BTMS with Cetrimonium Chloride or your mentioned Steartrimonium Chloride.
@Paprik can I use bhms 50 in making skin moisturizer lotion? As you said it is surfactant.
It is a surfactant, however cationic one. Therefore it is not really suitable for hydrating products.
For standard emulsions you should use anionic and non-ionic ingredients (leave cationic ones for hair care).@Paprik thank you!
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drjayseesunish said:Paprik said:drjayseesunish said:Paprik said:BTMS-50 is a surfactant (emulsifier) and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimoniumchloride is a gum. It is always a good practise to include gum in your formulas for better stability. As HPTM is positively charged it is also beneficial. So yeah, no problem there
PS. no point would be adding 2 surfactants, such as BTMS with Cetrimonium Chloride or your mentioned Steartrimonium Chloride.
@Paprik can I use bhms 50 in making skin moisturizer lotion? As you said it is surfactant.
It is a surfactant, however cationic one. Therefore it is not really suitable for hydrating products.
For standard emulsions you should use anionic and non-ionic ingredients (leave cationic ones for hair care).@Paprik thank you!
@Paprik , Is it suitable for formulation of hair mask, a leave on product? Or we can use only in hair shampoo?
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drjayseesunish said:
@Paprik thank you!
@Paprik , Is it suitable for formulation of hair mask, a leave on product? Or we can use only in hair shampoo?
It is very suitable in hair mask and also in leave on products. However check regulations, you usually use only little amount in leave on products.
Shampoos are usually anionic (negatively charged) so it is not suitable to use it in shampoo at all. [You can use cationically charged gum or polymer tho .. such as Polyquaternium-7 and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride].
Happy formulating.
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Paprik said:drjayseesunish said:
@Paprik thank you!
@Paprik , Is it suitable for formulation of hair mask, a leave on product? Or we can use only in hair shampoo?
It is very suitable in hair mask and also in leave on products. However check regulations, you usually use only little amount in leave on products.
Shampoos are usually anionic (negatively charged) so it is not suitable to use it in shampoo at all. [You can use cationically charged gum or polymer tho .. such as Polyquaternium-7 and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride].
Happy formulating.
@Paprik As my knowledge is not much good in formulation so please explain it to understand better..BTMS 50 cationic product but why cationic gum is preferred in hair shampoo though having similar charge?and what happen if we use as I have seen some hair mask and pomade using BTMS 50 in their formulation?
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You need to realise that surfactant has much more stronger charge in compare to cationic gum/polymer.
If you would mix cationic (BTMS, Cetrimonium Chloride … ) and anionic (Sodium Coco Sulfate, Sodium Cocoyl Methyl Isethionate…) they would act as magnets - cling together and would form insoluble substances.I said that BTMS is suitable for hair masks .. also for pomades. Along with non-ionic emulsifiers.
You usually use anionic for its cleansing ability (foaming surfactants) or emulsifying properties (emulsifiers) …
Hope this makes more sense now?
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Paprik said:You need to realise that surfactant has much more stronger charge in compare to cationic gum/polymer.
If you would mix cationic (BTMS, Cetrimonium Chloride … ) and anionic (Sodium Coco Sulfate, Sodium Cocoyl Methyl Isethionate…) they would act as magnets - cling together and would form insoluble substances.I said that BTMS is suitable for hair masks .. also for pomades. Along with non-ionic emulsifiers.
You usually use anionic for its cleansing ability (foaming surfactants) or emulsifying properties (emulsifiers) …
Hope this makes more sense now?
@Paprik..understood now😄. One more thing, surfactant usually use for cleaning purpose na, not for moisturizing purpose. In pomade it is not advisable, am I right?
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If I say surfactant and emulsifier they both are, chemically speaking, surfactants.
So surfactant can be the one that foams (cleans) and also the one that is being used in emulsions (emulsifier). Sorry if I confused you before.I am not an expert on pomades, but yes, I believe you would use some kind of surfactant (emulsifier) to build viscosity.
Or if you’re making W/O emulsion, you would use low HLB emulsifier. -
Paprik said:If I say surfactant and emulsifier they both are, chemically speaking, surfactants.
So surfactant can be the one that foams (cleans) and also the one that is being used in emulsions (emulsifier). Sorry if I confused you before.I am not an expert on pomades, but yes, I believe you would use some kind of surfactant (emulsifier) to build viscosity.
Or if you’re making W/O emulsion, you would use low HLB emulsifier.Paprik said:If I say surfactant and emulsifier they both are, chemically speaking, surfactants.
So surfactant can be the one that foams (cleans) and also the one that is being used in emulsions (emulsifier). Sorry if I confused you before.I am not an expert on pomades, but yes, I believe you would use some kind of surfactant (emulsifier) to build viscosity.
Or if you’re making W/O emulsion, you would use low HLB emulsifier.@Paprik your explanations are great. Great teacher! Pardon me if I asked inappropriate thing, which field you are expert in? Which kind of cosmetics so I can ask you more😉
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@drjayseesunish, hehe, you’re too kind
I am faaar from being expert in anything. But so far I’ve been focusing on O/W emulsions and currently looking into foaming products.
You can ask anything, I am pretty sure other members will happily help
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Paprik said:@drjayseesunish, hehe, you’re too kind
I am faaar from being expert in anything. But so far I’ve been focusing on O/W emulsions and currently looking into foaming products.
You can ask anything, I am pretty sure other members will happily help
@Paprik Please clear one doubts , why there us need of adding xanthum gum for making moisturizer skin cream where already emulsifier is doing the work of blending water and oil phase together. Please..
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Xanthan Gum gels the water.
Imagine it as a fishing net. And micelles (oil trapped in the emulsifiers) as fishes. They will try to swim to each other over time. That is when the fishing net comes and prevents the micelles/fish from moving. = Increased stability.Another way to imagine it is something like a facial scrub. Or any product with beads in it. If you put the beads into a water they will either flow on the top or go to the bottom. But if you add gum/polymer (stabiliser) and mix it, it should hold all the beads in place and prevent them from moving.
Hope this explains it a bit?
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