[David08848]

Sorry, Thanks!
David

[David08848]

Perry,  You’ve got a good point there!  That’s why I was thinking of trying to formulate it myself as another option which is another reason I was going after some output on the individual components.  I was thinking of putting together a couple of lists of combinations I think might work if that is OK with you and posting it here.  I’m not looking for percentages and am eager to formulate it myself but would like some input about these combinations so I know whether I am on the right track!  Thanks to you and everyone for their input, it has meant a great deal to me!

Thanks!
David
Stone Cottage Soapworks Inc.

[David08848]

Thanks for the suggestions!  I know Susan’s blog and have copied the complete blog to use for reference.  She does extensive research but is a hobbyist not a cosmetic chemist and I take that into consideration.  Still, I have found her blog useful and I admire her fearless approach to everything.  I also appreciate your observations.  I am looking for this kind of observation so I can pick and choose the right surfactants for my product. As I mentioned, it is the main surfactant in this base with taurates, isethionates and CAPB which should provide a lot of lather on their own.  There’s nothing like the advice of someone who has used it, though so thanks!  Any other experiences with this surfactant?

Thanks again!
David

[David08848]

Belassi and thebrain,
More pieces to the puzzle!  Good to know that it performs well and has superior foam!  I can see the cost being a problem but perhaps that is why I see formulations with both Sodium Cocoamphoacetate and CAPB in them?  If it helps create a product that is more costly to make then just demands a higher price and appropriate presentation!

Thanks again for the input!  Much appreciated!
David

[David08848]

Bobzchemist,

By “access” we mean that we get a message not allowing us to view those two items because we are not in Europe!  I am a member of UL Prospector and have been for years and have ordered many samples and made connections with businesses there with whom I have done business.

Belassi, thanks!  Sodium Cocoamphoacetate seems to be more readily available here in the US. and is available from resellers online when makes it convenient but expensive.  What I would like to know are it’s characteristics in formulation. Chemical companies descriptions tend to tell the positive aspects not the less positive!  Thanks for any insight you can provide!

David

[David08848]

Sorry, I don’t have access either.  So many times I see different chemical names for the same product whether it is an INCI name or other type of chemical name so I don’t always know what the truth is and I don’t want to get any of this wrong.

[David08848]

Robert,

So you’re saying there is somewhat of a link between “solids and actives” and it seems that the MSDS, Spec and Tech data sheets (which have become my new best friends) that don’t list “actives” do list “solids” which is why I suspected there might be a relationship between the two even though there may some exceptions!

Belassi,

You’re lucky when your get a manufacturer who lists suggested usage percents for body wash, bubble bath, shampoo but I have seen them and it seems that some of the literature that the chemical companies are handing out is becoming more user friendly these days as are their formularies.  Sometimes it is just a matter experimentation which seems to be your approach.  I have always done a ton of research then finally experimentation which works well for me but might be the best approach for everyone.

Guys,  I appreciate your input!  The puzzle may be a large one but you are providing some of the crucial pieces helping it go together more easily and more quickly!

Thanks again!
David 

[David08848]

Belassi, what I seem to be getting from this is if a company has a surfactant blend they may be less apt to give out information like actives percentage?  I am certainly aware that they wouldn’t give out the actual percentages of each ingredient in the blend but I would think it would be to their benefit to list an “actives” amount for the complete blend to make it easier for the customer to formulate!  Chemist77, thank for clearing that up for me.  I knew that in some surfactants that something like stearic acid would be an ingredient but not and active but I was trying to see if their was any link between the two. 

Thanks! 
David

[David08848]

Thanks, ozgirl!  Now that I am reviewing the Innospec Product guide, I can see what you’re saying!  All of the products with Methyl in them are touted as surfactants that will make either a clear or transparent formulation.  Thanks for another piece of the puzzle!  I appreciate it!

David

[David08848]

Not a problem… coming from Tribeca in NYC we really notice the differences and joke about it all the time ourselves!  It is a culture shock going back and forth between the two.  We’re fighting the destruction of our area against the pipelines going through and under the Delaware River  so it may no longer be “unspoiled” for very much longer! (

[David08848]

Bob,  We’re actually in Warren Glen 8 miles from Rt 78 and 6 miles from the Riegelsville Bridge to Upper Buck County which is actually quite a busy road!  Farm country, yes some of it, hillbillies, yes a few of those but more in Pennsyltucky.  Actually quite a lovely area with lots of great views of the hills and the river and nice back roads to cycle on! 

David

[David08848]

Mark,

I look forward to trying some things from Innospec.  I’ll decide this weekend and put in a request.  One of their formulas using a base with CAB included in it already added an additional 3% of CAB to the formula.  I was assuming that was for thickening… but I’ll take your experience into account in working with it.  Perhaps they can advise on that aspect as the rep has been so helpful and they will even send you samples of their formulas made up for you to try!  First time I have heard of that!

I have had the pleasure of working with young David Anderson Jr. in the past and he even came into my little store before we renovated and moved into our 2800 sq. ft. building here in Bloomsbury, NJ!  He was very helpful and nice to work with.

I am beginning to see what you mean by being “on the radar of the Chemical reps” and have had some luck in gaining knowledge and information!  Being in New Jersey, I am lucky to have so many chemical companies here in this state.  Protameen has been great and the rep John Carola even delivered several huge bags of Stearic and Myristic Acid…at no charge!  Really nice to work with him and Protameen!  It’s nice to find companies who are willing to work with small businesses!

Thanks again!
David

[David08848]

Mark,

Thanks for the heads up!  I have checked their site, looked at their offerings and spoke to a rep from there yesterday who was quite helpful!  They also have several blends which may be an option for me and also served to reinforce the choices of surfactants I had made by showing me that they do go together and will produce the type of product I am trying to create!  Thanks again for your guidance!  I will be checking out your site next! :>
Regards, David

[David08848]

“Lots of surfactants contain salt, in fact. Betaines in particular.
However, in sulphate-free formulations, the salt generally has no effect
on viscosity.” 

Hence the name “Sodium Methyl Cocoyl Taurate”, I assume?  Sorry if I am having a “duh” moment… but each little bit of information helps fill in the puzzle!  Thanks for adding another piece!    Regards, David

[David08848]

Robert,
I appreciate your input.  You’re right in that I need to give a few things a try and see how they work for me but for me research is part of the learning process.  I come to this as a self taught soapmaker without a background in Cosmetic Chemistry so I have to learn about each ingredient before I attempt to use it.  I am fortunate that I have my own business and can get samples of these ingredients before I make a purchase but these samples are small and as such I must make sure I select things that will work together so I don’t waste them.  I did try something once many years ago and came up with a product that formed 3 distinct layers.  Not a success!  I am also fortunate that I have belonged to message boards with people like Perry and other cosmetic chemists so that I have been able to post or call them and discuss the product I am trying to create.  My problem and others of those in my position is an unfamiliarity with all the “players”!  Checking out ingredients lists on product that are available in the market can be helpful in finding out what goes with what. Checking out formulas from cosmetic ingredient suppliers can also be beneficial for the same reason.  For me, once I see patterns emerge then I know I’m headed in the right direction.  From there it makes it easier to make my choices then I can start making formulations and samples and see where I stand.  But if I don’t take the time to check out each ingredient I may find a problem in working with one or them.  Take Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, for instance, it sounds like it would have great characteristics for a body wash with good lather but it is not always easy to work with hence articles available on “The solubilization of Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate”.   So, sometimes it is better to do that research for those of us who don’t have the background that you have but you are right in that I need to put more of my energy in trying some things sooner and not overlooking something that might be obvious or readily available that may not seem to be the perfect choice but turns out to be in the long run!  Thanks again for your input and for answering this and previous questions!  I do appreciate it!

David

[David08848]

I’ve did some research on Sodium Methyl Cocoyl Taurate and find that it seems to contain Salt.  I also saw someone mention that it works well is Cocomidopropyl Betaine and and that together they great a thicker product.  Would this be because of the salt in the SMCT?

Sodium Methyl Oleoyl Taurate is another option I am considering and that also seems to contain salt according to one of the MSDS sheets I read but a lower amount.  Any info you can add would be most welcome!

I found one formula online from one of the chemical companies and I will take some time to look through UL Prospector for suppliers of both surfactants for formulations they provide.  Obviously, checking out ingredients lists of current products that are out there can be helpful as can taking a trip on the U.S and other patent sites in providing data and formulations.  Ain’t the Internet great?

I would welcome any suggestions!

[David08848]

Perry, thanks for the suggestion.  Pricewise, adding any of the four different types of Vitamin E would be too costly for this project.  I have never added an ingredients for “marketing claims” and this issue forced me to think about it for the first time!  So far, I haven’t done it in my product line and I decided not to.  Thanks for your input!

[David08848]

Thanks Bob,

I went to the site and found the document and downloaded it.  I’m looking it over now.  It seems that this issue is more complicated than I expected!  I ended up filling the “16 oz.” containers by weight and came up with 18 oz. as the net weight to fill them high enough to get the pump in with enough head room for the product.  I’ll look more carefully at this document…

David

[David08848]

Sorry, “This MAY be a simple question” and “NET Wt.”…
8-|

[David08848]

Thanks, Mark!  I’ll check them out!

[David08848]

Mark,

Thanks for your reply!  I’m hoping for some skin benefits but price may ultimately decide which option to choose.  Thanks for the info on the types and I appreciate the usage rate information as well!  Thanks for your assistance!  Now I can try and find a supplier!

David