[David08848]

Cafe33, Thanks for your reply! It took a while to find the ingredients list for this product but I finally did today! The idea of something with Stearic Acid, Water, Glycerin, Potassium Hydroxide and other ingredients looks like a good option to go with my Shaving Cream! Time to start searching for formulations online like this type! I appreciate your input!

[David08848]

Most of the formulas that are available in old Soapmaking and Cosmetic Chemistry over the last 100 plus years point out that the main ingredient which is Stearic Acid and rest which are a smaller percentage of a lathering oil or fatty acid are saponified with a smaller percentage of NaOH and a larger percentage of KOH and are in the suggested ratios of 1/3 all the way up to 1/10! It’s a balancing act!

[David08848]

After taking a six year break, I decided to look batch at all this and see where I could go with it!

In viewing my own shaving, using my own shaving cream formula inspired those originally made in the 1920’s, I found that my skin seemed to have more “slip and glide” which seemed to be coming from the glycerin in the formula and perhaps some of that was the KOH created soap as well! (after passing the razor over the face, I could feel the remaining moisture on my face with my fingers!)

Since the shaving cream is an anionic, I should think of using a “pre-shave” formula containing those kind of ingredients! Glycerin, H2O, a small amount of oil or liquid fatty acid to create a “pre shave” that is applied just before the shave, so that it can help moisturize the skin before the soap is applied and lathered to make it so that the shaving cream (either created by lathering in a bowl or lathering the shaving cream on the face) can be applied to the skin without the shaving cream drying on the skin after it is applied! The oil and glycerin would attach themselves to the skin, moisturise it and some of the water may evaporate while applying it, but the oil and glycerin will remain and help the skin be more moist as the lathering is applied which takes place during the process!

So it would be just a matter of choosing the right ingredients and selecting the proper percentages. I am assuming that I will need something like KOH to create an emulsion to combine the water, glycerin and oil etc. If you have any thoughts or suggestions, I will be grateful to have your input! Regards, David

[David08848]

gordof, Thanks for your reply! I make 100 ounce batches of shaving cream with granular Stearic Acid, ground Myristic Acid and Coconut oil in KOH, NaOH and Triethanolamine in H2O which are processed in a stainless steal restaurant double boiler so the inner pot gets a Stearic Acid “coating” during the process which will then sometimes get into the water of the base kettle. So everything can get coated with Stearic Acid. I just tried scrubbing the two pots with a steel wool cleaning pad and “Dawn” dishwashing liquid which worked fairly well but didn’t get the Stearic off completely! Any suggestions on type of cleaning agents or devices would be appreciated! Also, getting the double boiler up to temperature sometimes takes quite a while and I have been using an electric water heating device to heat up the water more quickly which does help but it still takes a while to get the water temperature up into the 170’s F which is what is needed! Eager to hear more suggestions! Thanks! David

[David08848]

[David08848]

Well, I’m looking for a scale with a tare feature that can weigh from 0.1 ozs. to 20 to 25 lbs.  I don’t need any fancy features just the ones above and I need it to last 4-5 years.  I would like it in the $90-$120 range.  As I mentioned before I have an Ohaus Triple Beam Scale which I can use to measure chemicals in small percentages.  If anyone has a suggestions I would greatly appreciate it!  Escali looked interesting…   David

[David08848]

So, in trying to go through the processes for the Ohaus Trooper we did try what I think was the calibration.  In doing so, we put the eight 500g weights on the scale with “Cal” showing on the screen and it read the eight weights and when we removed the eighth and seventh it still showed something that indicated it was reading them but when we removed the sixth weight, it no longer showed that it was weighing anything so it read the weights totaling 3000g which indicates to me that it still has the original factory calibration on it.  Only ERROR 1 showed on the screen this time and no other errors.  Sorry for sounding so vague in describing this but after trying to go through so many procedures it is difficult to remember exactly what happened with each one!  Thanks for your help so far.  If you have any suggestions regarding the above stuff, it will be appreciated!  Regards, David

[David08848]

Update:

Thanks guys for your replies!  Syl, I did have a copy of the manual from that link but I looked around and found the original document!  I also found 8 500g weights that I purchased several years ago to somehow make it work and I had assistance from a friend, Kevin, to get it running at that time but I don’t think that was a “full” calibration but rather an “update” “correction” to make sure that the numbers were up to date?  (I seem to remember having a telephone conversation 7 or 8 years ago with someone from Ohaus who talked me through a process to use those eight 500g weights!) 

As far as the document is concerned,  unfortunately, the text seems to be written for those who are knowledgeable of scale parts and function and it is not “dumbed down” for those with lack of knowledge in this area.  I know that I have seen Error 1 and Error 2 and Error 14 as well but that apparently got me nowhere!

DAS, you made a good point as far as the usage of these scales.  Since soap, shaving soap and traditional shaving cream are concerned, I do not work with minute numbers and a slight difference in a number isn’t going to make much difference!  Also, I own an Ohaus Triple Beam which I can use for smaller amounts and more precise numbers!  I just need something that will weigh up to 300 oz. or 320 oz. with a bucket to make the soap and less for the rest and having a scale that could do a “tare”.  One that would hold an 18″ wide bucket on top.  One that would weigh in tenths instead of .2 .4 .6 .8 (like the Ohaus did!) so if I have something with 1/2 oz. I could get an actual weight for that!  Other than that I would need to fancy features just accurate weight and not cost a crapload of money to purchase!  It would be great if I could get both running again but if spending up to $100 for an easy and accurate scale it would be great!   Thanks guys for you input!  Eager to hear more if you would!  Regards,
David

[David08848]

Syl, I called them today, talked about the 2 machines which need help.  They were so old that the guy I spoke with really didn’t seem to know enough.  If we were going to try to “calibrate” it, I was told that I needed a 30 POUND weight to do the process!  The TR30RS seemed to have some with a little weight that I can’t find any longer and one site showed a small metal circular weight item that was sold with it and I remember having one and using it to set up the machine!  So, it seems that it would be the smallest weight (200 grams) used by the machine is the one that is needed!  Did I get it right or wrong?

David

[David08848]

Syl said:

I worked for Mettler Toledo for 7 years for one of their divisions. They own the Ohaus brand. As far as I am concerned all their product lines are over priced, they think of themselves as the Louis Vuitton of balances. Their Ohaus balance is made in China. As an employee of Mettler, they would not give me a discount on an Ohaus balance for my hobby. So I bought an Adam brand balance from the UK, then a second one when I started my business and I have no complaints. 

I certainly can agree with you on the price of this line of products!  It is difficult finding a scale that works well, lasts for a long time without any problems, and is easy to operate!  The Instruction Manual that comes with the Ohaus is not very clear and doesn’t seem to offer any assistance to fixing a problem rather just stating that there is a problem!  I’ll take a longer look at the Adam brand you mentioned as well as all the others I see out there!  I need to get busy with some projects and this is the worst time for this to happen!  Thanks!

[David08848]

After numerous attempts online of finding out the appropriate numbers of each ingredient in Tea Stearate, I finally found the answer by typing in “2 parts Stearic Acid to 1 part Triethanolamine for Tea Stearate” in my browser and came up with this:

“When TEA is combined with stearic acid in a 2:1 Ratio, 2 parts stearic acid to 1 part TEA (by weight) it functions as a primary or secondary emulsifier in cosmetic formulations.”  from this site: 

https://www.ataman-chemicals.com/en/products/triethanolamine-2079.html

David

[David08848]

Belassi said:

Ah. I can see where the confusion is coming from now. Using the abbreviation TEA is a problem because it is also used for triethylamine which has a mole weight of 101.2 … whereas triethanolamine is 149.2
Stearic acid is 284.5 and so the correct procedure is to add 284.5g of acid to 149.2g of base. (1 mole of each) A ratio of 1.9 to 1, within 2% accuracy. 

 OK, so does this mean:

“A ratio of 1.9 to 1”  =  (approx.) 2 parts Stearic Acid to 1 part Triethanolamine ?

David

[David08848]

chemicalmatt,  Maurice was also a member of a board called “The Soap Dish”  where he helped and gave advice to home-crafters making soap and cosmetic type products.  I saw the value in his posts and joined his Yahoo Board where I learned as much as I could about the cosmetic chemistry approach.  Unfortunately there was someone on “The Dish” who created a problem, made him feel uncomfortable so eventually he left there and took his posts with him.  Fortunately, I had saved them and still have them to look at!  He unfortunately passed away quite a few years ago but he is still missed!  Still, I have fond memories of his help and his kindness!

suswang8, I understand what you’re saying about seeing the value of adding extra water ahead of time to cover the upcoming water loss during the manufacture of a shaving cream.  My concern is about the sizes of the water phases in various old sample formulations and the fact that evaporation is not mentioned in the procedures for making each formula.  For me it is a matter of my interpretation of a formula because only one formula so far has addressed the issue!  I can use my years of making shaving cream to determine whether a certain water phase is too high or too low, decide whether I should add extra water ahead of time or weigh the batch and add it after and go from there!  Having as many sample formulas as possible can be helpful and hopefully some patterns will emerge and help me get to the right place!  I’m close, but I have one more hurdle to get through!  Just determining the size of the Tea Stearate and readjusting the lye ratios accordingly and I’ll be done!  Regarding the “Note:  The loss of water is approx. 10%” , I would think if they wanted you to add 10% of water back they would have said so.  This seems to indicate that they see the 10% water loss as part of the formula and the manufacture of that formula.  That’s my take on that!

Thanks, everyone!

[David08848]

I was fortunate quite a few years ago to be able to communicate with the late Maurice Hevey who was a cosmetic chemist who was on a Yahoo Cosmetic Chemistry message board and he helped many people (just as Perry does now) to understand the basics of cosmetic chemistry and the specialized characteristics as well.  I learned very early on about formulas so I am quite familiar with the 100 percent base of all formulas. 

Lathering Shaving cream became quite popular starting in the 1920’s and the formulas and ingredients lists from those times are still exactly the same on current products as they were back then because they work well!  There are quite a number of books that contain formulas for this type of shaving cream dating back to that time especially in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s and they either can be found in cosmetic chemistry formula books or soapmaking textbooks.  Cosmetic Chemistry procedure has changed greatly in the last 100 years so it is not unusual to look back at an old book and find some procedures that are now questionable.  That is why I asked the questions I did. 

I haven’t noticed any current formulas (for any kind of products) that mention having an evaporation percentage but I have seen some that say you should add back any of the evaporated water to the batch of that particular product.  Also, the procedures listed in these old books such as stirring something on heat for a certain period of time would cause evaporation so I am now looking at the production procedures from some of these old formulas to see if they have techniques like those listed! That tells me something about that formula and answers the questions as to why some of the old formulas have larger water phases than the others!

Because my batches are relatively small, I can easily add the amount of water that evaporated, the next day and homogenize it.  A large production company probably can’t do that quite as easily as I can.  So it would behoove them to have a larger water phase to account for the water loss during their production which is why some of these old formulas have larger water phases. Because of this, it will tell me what size water phase I need in creating my formulation.  So the formulas with procedures in them can tell me quite a bit more about them than those without!  Obviously comparing phase size, ingredients and procedures can as well! Having this knowledge helps me to understand which old formula will be more helpful to me to create a new formulation!

Also, I did know that it was the water that was evaporating in the formula because none of the other ingredients have the ability to evaporate I just needed to know if it was 10% of the total formula (not the water phase) and if they had written it this way I wouldn’t have felt the need to just verify what I thought all along!  - “Note:  The loss of water is approx. 10% (of the total formula)”

Thanks!

[David08848]

Thanks guys,
Sorry, but I guess I wasn’t clear about a few things.  What I am trying to find out is about a particular kind of shaving cream that is soap based and made with Fatty Acids like Stearic and Myristic Acid as well as Coconut Oil or Coconut Fatty Acids which are saponified by KOH, NaOH and TEA.  This type of lathering cream has a history of about 100 years and many of the formulas that are out there in the market still contain all of these more “natural” soap based ingredients and no surfactants.  Since they use Fatty Acids they do not contain the amount of glycerin that it needed in the formula to keep the creamy lather “attached” to the skin for the length of time needed to complete the shave, help maintain the “moisture” level and provide the type of consistency needed for that purpose.  The “listing” that was from a formulation was just pointing out that those two options were considered “humectants and moisturizers” but did l some more research I found information listed on a familiar site by this gentleman named Perry Romanoski!   

“Sorbitol - This is a 6 Carbon sugar that has 6 -OH groups. It can be derived from glucose so can maintain a natural story. It is more hygroscopic than glycerin and doesn’t suffer from the stickiness problem.  However, it is more expensive which is why it is not used as extensively as glycerin or propylene glycol.” 

This provided the information I was looking for and showed me why sorbitol was chosen as a “substitute” for glycerin from a shaving cream formula that it sold in tubular form!  Sorry that I wasn’t as clear as I could have been but I appreciate your input and the information from that Romanoski gentleman!  Regards, David

https://chemistscorner.com/humectants-cosmetic-formulating-basics/

[David08848]

One listing mentions that  these two ingredients are “humectants/moisturizers (for example, glycerin, glycerol, sorbitol and other polyols)” which in effect create more lubricity in a stearic acid, myristic acid and coconut fatty based soap.  The more glycerin I have used in my formulations the more lubricity is created in the product ideal for shaving.  I have never used sorbitol before and I am just trying to determine the difference between the two in this type of product.

[David08848]

Cafe33,
You must have found formula #2226 of Poucher’s as there are very few formulas with Stearic, Myristic and Coconut in them!  This one isn’t even a lathering cream either!  The problem I have encountered the most is that so many of the “shaving cream” formulas of this type don’t specifically say what their purpose is!  I have seen only a few that list “lathering” as their type and others like the one above is more of a liquid cream that is applied to the face with your hand and a brush is not really needed.

There a some formulas that contain “observations” and “recommendations” about formulating these shaving creams which has been helpful but some may vary on certain points from the others which makes it more difficult to know which aspect will work best!

I like working with these old style formulations because they are simple and if done correctly can give you exactly what you need!  They are can have some more “modern” types of additives that can give them something a little special but still remain acceptable in the shaving market!

[David08848]

Hi!
Yes, I am familiar with that formula.  It was listed here by “saleem” and it is available online from various sources starting with books but also in .pdf form which has the “Palm Oil” listed but the original formula actually has “Palm Kernel Oil” listed at 5% and the rest of what is out there appear to be “copies” of that original book formula from “New Cosmetic Science”.  Hopefully, the colloidal oatmeal will work well for you!

The problem with shaving cream and shaving soap formulas as well as some other shaving types of products is that most of the available information from traditional shaving products is around 100 years old and some of the best sources of these types of products are old cosmetic chemistry and soap making books with the most useful information starting in the 1920’s.  For me, “if it ain’t broken, don’t fix it” is my philosophy but I’m open to working with these types of formula and experimenting with “newer” ingredients if I feel like it!  I also like to keep it simple, if I can as long as the product can do what you need it to do!  I’ll check out the “colloidal oatmeal” when I have some time!
Thanks!

[David08848]

Whenever I use an additive that is finely ground like an herb, spice or other similar things I have added it to the oil phase.  That way it can absorb the oil first rather than absorbing the lye into it from being in the water/lye bath.  I have done a great deal of this in handcrafted soap and perhaps only a natural powdered colorant in a shaving soap or cream but I would think adding it to the heated oil phase would be the better option. 

[David08848]

In essence, you are making a soap out of Stearic Acid and Sodium Hydroxide so you need to find an online lye calculator, put in the amount of Stearic Acid you wish to use and it will calculate the amount of Sodium Hydroxide needed based on the SAP value of Stearic Acid:

Stearic Acid SAP Value:.148 /.208

Here is a well-known calculator which is fairly easy to use!

https://www.the-sage.com/lyecalc/

Good luck!

[David08848]

Sodium Stearate is made from Sodium Hydroxide and Stearic Acid.  Are both of those available in your country?  If so then you should be able to make it yourself.

[David08848]

Benz3ne,
As long as it works for you!  I’m selling to the “shaving community” out there online and they are quite a tough crowd with lots of experience with all of the varieties of Lathering Shaving Cream made and sold all over the world which doesn’t make it easy!  Interestingly, the original post included a formula that was posted on this site but it wasn’t put up here correctly in the first place!  It is actually a Harry’s Cosmeticology formula that didn’t include “Palm” oil but rather “Palm Kernel” oil which puts it into a different ballpark!  Also the ratio of KOH to NaOH at 7.0% to 1.5%  is not actually a 5/1 ratio which is what is most often suggested!  Yup!  A balancing act for sure!
David

[David08848]

Benz3ne said:

TEA Stearate vs TEA seems to be a very valid point in my opinion.
I’ll also agree that the NaOH vs KOH values seemed way out of whack. I’ve seen 5:1 being mentioned before but had a good go with a veggie-friendly shaving soap (harder, rather than cream/paste) with 3:2 KOH:NaOH and that firmed up nicely also. It is absolutely worth noting that the Stearic Acid definitely likes to freeze up during hot process. Something that I’ve seen mentioned on multiple occasions.
I am, however, interested in the distinction between Belassi’s formula vs Saleem’s, in that Belassi’s contained Polyquaternium-7. 
I recall doing some fiddling a while back with shaving soaps/creams and found that stearic-heavy formulae gave a lot of fluffy bubbles. Nice to look at but not substantially slippy to provide glide during shaving. Saponifying castor oil definitely helped, as did palm oil. I don’t recall trying with coconut oil but have some fractionated coconut oil to hand now so I may well dig out some notes and give it a go (with PolyQuat-7 included I think) and see how that goes.
Similarly, I found that overloading with glycerine gave stick/tack rather than slip so that’s worth noting.
Laaasttly, I have some vague recollections of accounting for evaporative losses with water content, though I could’ve dreamt that up… It’s always worth noting that superfatting is a very worthwhile avenue to explore for shaving soaps.

Benz3ne,
This formula is for a Lathering Shaving Cream.  Stearic Acid has a high meltpoint compared to typical soap making oils and is used both in this type of product and in a puck of hard shaving soap because of the lather that stearic acid can produce if it is paired with some form of Coconut Oil.  Typically Stearic Acid produces a dense foam type of lather and for shaving, “bubbles” are not what is needed to make it a good product.  Castor Oil containers a large percentage of Ricinoleic Acid which creates a soap that is quite water soluble and creates larger “bubbles” which are not what is sought to create a good lather for shaving.  Fractionated Coconut oil is also an oil that is not only more expensive but creates a very soft soap which would not be ideal for any soap type product!  Typically Glycerin is used in the 5%-10% range in shaving cream products and does assist in creating slip and glide needed for lathering shaving cream.  Typically a superfat is included in shaving creams and shaving soaps and from my research starting back in 2004, the 4% range is what is suggested in old soapmaking, cosmetic chemistry books, patents and other information available starting in the 1920’s and continuing through the next few decades.  It is quite a balancing act and getting just the right consistency as well as good performance is not easy!

David

  

[David08848]

Benz3ne said:

Belassi said:

I did not continue with this experiment so I can’t comment further.

It’s a shame you’re not commenting on some of the points raised, in case someone wants to satisfy their curiosity and try and replicate/resolve the issues you experienced.

Benz3ne,
I agree with you.  We’re here to learn so let’s see what we come up with!  The two issues which I see are the “TEA” listed and the amount of NaOH used and the ratio between the NaOH and KOH which are covered in many old books and other sources.  If it is actually TEA Stearate then it would probably work out to .9% triethanolamine and 1.8 stearic acid with .1% superfat included in the stearic.  The ratio of the NaOH to the KOH seems to be the problem here.  The oils used in the percentages listed are the same as a formula posted here by “saleem” in 2012:

“Here is a simple formulation of shaving cream with its
simple procedure.

(A)

Stearic acid =                        30.00%

Coconut oil =                        10.00%

Palm Oil =                             5.00%

(

Potassium Hydroxide =     7.00%

Soda caustic =                      1.50%

Glycerin =                             10.00%

water =                                  36.50%

 

Process.

Part (A) and Part ( separately Heated in the vessels at 75 centigrade temp

After this mix both parts till it become homogeneously.

Add the perfume in the end at 35 centigrade.

It is a simple formulation which raw material easily available in the market.”

The ratio of the oils in the above formula is about 5/1 which many sources suggest and the .3% NaOH used in this formula is quite low throwing this ratio with the 7.5% KOH to 20something/1 ratio which is way out of the ballpark!  My formula with 4.5% Tea Stearate made a batch that was wet and pasty so I’m thinking that the too low NaOH and what may be too high Tea Stearate may be the reason it did what it did!  Such strange results!  Benz3ne, what do you think?

David

[David08848]

Thanks, Matt! I hadn’t heard of it and was wondering about using a higher pH solution like using up some KOH past it’s use by date or even NaOH solution! Alconox is one I hadn’t heard of and I’ll check it out again! Thanks for your input!

David