[abierose]

@ggpetrov I agree about the feel of cetearyl alcohol and it not having a waxy feeling. 100% agree about the Glycerin. I’m fairly new to the 165 emulsifier…what would you suggest using? Thank you!

[abierose]

Is Hemisqualane considered a super lightweight emollient..? Or are you referring more to CCT and Alkyl Benzoate?

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

Well…I pretty much have unlimited time and budget when I formulate, ….but here are my take-aways I have come away with.  Every ingredient counts.  Try as many ingredients in each segment as possible…each will have its own nuance.  Look at the best formulas in the segment…and deduce what they did, and why each component was included, and what it did for the formula.  The most difficult aspect is the final texture.  In the last cream I made….it took 41 generations…I had everything nailed by version 3….except texture, that took the other 38 generations.

1) Every ingredient counts….. Lets look at something like fatty alcohol….there are lots of choices…the only way you will know which one to choose…is make your formula with each (common) fatty alcohol, that being the only ingredient changed…then evaluate the formula.  The texture each will provide will be unique, and this is where it gets interesting…what feels good to one person, might not feel good to the next.  So formulators on this site can not tell you which one feels best….only which one feels best to them!  So me as an example… I like Cetyl esters best, cetyl alcohol 2nd best, and also use MM.  So that is only what feels best to ME…. not what will make your product feel the best to you.  I also tend to use ingredients at low level…as I think too much of anything…lends too much of its personality to the final product….as an example….if I have something that needs a lot of fatty alcohol to thicken…rather than go 3 or 4% of one…I will almost always blend two…to get the desired thickness….no science here….just preference.

As far as wow factor….in my opinion… you are lacking the super duper lite weight emollients…. I think you have read on this forum…what people are using in that regard….the premium products…are using lots of that….like in the 10% range.  I of course use a blend…again to keep things from getting monolithic, or as you may have read….a cascading emolliency.  I guess the simplest example of lite weight emollients would be….shake them….they should feel thinner than water.  This again is an area….where no one can tell you what feels best…as that again will be personal preference.  I keep about 6 of these on hand….and all have their own nuances….things like skin softening…shine…speed of absorption…etc..  So you use them where they fit…example…night cream….speed of absorption, you might not want lightening fast…shine….more is ok….etc.  I also evaluate comedogenic ratings on those…one of my fav’s I do not use in face creams….but pile it on….for body and hand.

Finally….wow factor…. I found with the liquid ingredients…I could not quite get there.  Do not underestimate the power of the polymeric emulsifiers, and carbomer.  There is immense differences in one’s that people seem to toss around as….interchangeable.  Trust me…. NOoooooooooooo.

Look at specialty ingredients…like Polymethylsilsesquioxane…. read everything you can on that one, or similar products.

But my final take away will always be….texture will always be personal opinion… I send samples to people around the globe on this forum….and I just giggle…at how different each person’s perception is.  What I might consider near failure…they might say is one of the best things they have ever felt.

Last but not least….create more versions of your product than you ever imagined….take notes…learn…and improve.  Technique …. technique…technique… get the right equipment…and follow the mfg (not reseller) instructions.

Thanks @Graillotion! Once again you’ve given me awesome feedback and a lot of homework ???? I appreciate every bit of it! 

I too have wanted to mix certain ingredient types like fatty alcohols…but in the past I have gotten feedback from others on the forum that I don’t need more than one of each ingredient…so I’ll start mixing ingredients like fatty alcohols…funny because I was just researching some others as I am getting a bit tired of the 3 common ones that are used all the time ???? 

Anyway, thanks again! And back to the drawing board for me but at least I feel I have a better place to start, or continue, now ????

[abierose]

ggpetrov said:

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

Oh…and emulsifier inclusion rate looks low.

I kinda thought that too. I’ll bump that up. Thank you!!

I find the Glyceryl stearate & PEG 100 stearate gives a sticky and waxy emulsions. Despite the fact that your formula contains too much glycerine, maybe you should change the emulsifier too. I don’t think the Cetearyl alcohol has a waxy feeling, but it has a great stabilizing properties.

Thank you! I’ve actually changed the formula IMMENSELY thanks to everyone’s feedback and some awesome tips from @Graillotion ???? I have attached the the latest formula. I like it so much better!! However I do feel it’s still missing something…I love the texture and feel…but it does tend to have a dry yet dewey feel that stays on the face for a while after application…I don’t know  I guess it’s missing that WOW factor…any feedback on the new formula would be much appreciated!

[abierose]

Oh, me too…this place has become my nightly read ????

[abierose]

RedCoast said:

@abierose 100% grapefruit EO smells too sharp and bitter to me, but I do like it in combination with other citruses! Bergamot and yuzu, to me, are more complex and balanced.

I also enjoy pear, but 99.9% of the pear FOs are too perfumey! I’d like to see a close replication of a ripe bosc pear… seriously, have you smelled a fresh sliced one? I couldn’t believe how delicious and complex it was!

Rosemary EO really shines in trace amounts, particularly for “forest” and oriental blends. But yeah, dominant rosemary perfumes are just too strong for me. Gardeners and Italians like it strong, though!

Supposedly, frankincense sourced from Oman is supposed to be the best and least musky/musty/earthy and heavy, but I haven’t tried it out yet. I’m okay with frankincense, especially in trace amounts, if the unpleasant musty and heavy undertones aren’t there.

Brambleberry has been on my “to buy” list for a while, and I may just purchase some of their woody ones soon. Their tea FOs look interesting!

You can’t go wrong with ginger, either, especially in trace amounts. Also, Neroli and ginger also go well together. I like ginger with cypress, too!

I’ll have to check out yuzu! And 100% agree about Pear EO’s…they never smell like the real thing and are way too purfumey ????

Thanks for all the feedback! I love this forum!! The information and knowledge shared is priceless ???? Feels good to be a part of such a warm, welcoming, INTELLIGENT community ????

[abierose]

Oh, and ginger is good too! But like pear, I haven’t found a good EO or FO of either. I would again recommend Essential Wholesale’s Passionfruit natural fragrance oil…it is truly nice. I recently purchased a few trial scents from Brambleberry and surprisingly I actually liked 3 out of the 4 I got!! 

[abierose]

@RedCoast yes, Bergamot is definitely one of my preferred citrus smells, along with Neiroli, but yes I do still love the simple smells of grapefruit and sweet orange and lemon! I also like Soeuce a lot..black spruce is the one I’m familiar with…

@Graillotion I am also trying to find the best way to naturally scent face products, specifically a lotion. The hydrosols were a go-to for a minute but the scent doesn’t last and they can be potentially irritating, so I don’t use them anymore.

As far as scents that are, or could be, pleasing to all sexes, there are only a few that I like…these include sweet orange, lemongrass, vanilla, pear, and coconut…all of which I would only use individually and in very small amounts in a face lotion…I am also NOT a fan of Lavender…or Rosemary…or Frankincense ???? I do like Sandalwood and Cedarwood in very small amounts but they are pretty masculine and not for everyone, nor a good choice for a night cream…

I like the idea of using just coconut oil to scent lotions..or different carrier oils that are said to have a pleasant smell to them, like Plum oil for example..
????‍♀️. 

[abierose]

@RedCoast black pepper + Bergamot + grapefruit + teensy tiny amount of Vetiver = a very lovely scent for men or women ???? 

@Graillotion omg, you seriously need to check out black pepper!! Who knew something like black pepper could have such depth and sweetness?! It is really amazing though ???? BTW, that basil and neoroli you sent me is pretty awesome smelling too and I think might try using it in a balm I make ????

[abierose]

Rossonna112 said:

abierose said:

Rossonna112 said:

Perry you are spot on. I use polyquat 7 at about 7% as a thicker(i love the moisturzing effects that it has on afro hair). It takes anywhere from about 6-7 days for my shampoo to settle. I figured it was polyquat. but wasent sure.

Thanks 

7% Polyquaternium 7? Whoa! That seems extreme! I love poly 7 as well but even at 2-3% it has a huge impact on the product’s viscosity…do you find it makes the product difficult to apply with this amount of poly 7? Just curious

Hello Abie, I actually ended up going down to 5% to decrease the settle time(still gives that nice richness)

To answer your question no it doesnt make the shampoo difficult to apply. It gives off that nice rich lather without being too thick and it doesnt strip the hair. I would assume its because this is the only thickning agent that i use in my Shampoo. I tried to go down to 2-3% as it was not effective enough(not enough thickness/richness). 

Ahh, I see. Well thank you for answering my question! It’s always fun to learn how others are using different ingredients! Also, i have yet to formulate a shampoo…probably the only thing I haven’t tried to make yet ???? What surficants do you use? 

[abierose]

RedCoast said:

@abierose

Black pepper and clove essential oils are my favorite! I can’t turn down a good orange and clove fragrance, either! I like the contrast between bergamot and black pepper, though if you throw a little basil in there I can’t help but become drawn to it like a bee to beebalm!

Yeah, it’s too bad that black pepper and clove are middle to top notes… it’s really hard to make them last as long as I’d like . It’s difficult to pick a fixative that doesn’t overwhelm the peppery notes.

Benzoin is a good fixative in general, but it can be too sweet and vanilla-y. Ylang Ylang III is excellent, but it can be on the pricey side. I haven’t tried the other distillations of Ylang Ylang yet, but I heard they can make interesting compositions.

I’m currently experimenting with juniper with pepper, and I like the results so far… but it doesn’t last as long as I’d like it, either.

Have you tried the “100% natural” fragrance oils from wholesalesuppliesplus.com yet? Those are surprisingly good, and they’ve given me ideas for my own creations. The ones I tried so far don’t have that airy, perfumey note that’s present in too many other “normal” fragrance oils. Unfortunately, they ARE pricey, and they won’t last in soap!

Are you familiar with Fragrantica? They have an ingredients search bar, which has become indispensable for my fragrance research.

I’m very glad I joined this site when I did. I could kick myself for not discovering this place sooner!

Paging @Graillotion! Have you had any awesome fragrance adventures, lately? Especially with pepper?

Yessss!!! Oh my gosh, I LOVE my black pepper essential oil! I have used it with Bergamot, black spruce and cypress…so amazing!

I haven’t tried the natural fragrance oils from wholesale supplies plus but I have gotten a few from essential wholesale supply that are awesome…specifically their Passionfruit and Papaya oils  

And I’ve said the same thing multiple times…I wish I would have discovered this forum long before I did…the information and knowledge I’ve gained, and continue to learn from, is priceless. And everyone is very kind and honest and intelligent too!! I ????

[abierose]

RedCoast said:

Problem is, most fragrance oils smell “perfumey” and too much like air freshener to me. There’s only some I like.

I stay away from florals and aquatic notes in general-they’re the worst offenders.

Wine/alcohol/bourbon notes are hit-or-miss.

Interestingly, woods blended with apple notes aren’t too bad.

Peppery notes, in my opinion, smell the least perfumey and the ones I like the most.

@abierose

Are you okay with using tiny amounts of essential oils? In my opinion, they aren’t perfumey. Problem is they’re pricey and some of them have odd or unpleasant top notes.

Oh my gosh, totally agree about most scents being too perfumey and you’re dead on about the floral and aquatic tones being the top offenders! I prefer the peppery notes as well. 

I am okay with using some small amounts of essential oils…but I’ve only found a handful of then that I like…I tend to like the citrus and peppery essential oils…the problem with essential oils is that the scent often leaves the product after a short time ????‍♀️

Thanks for your input!! Sounds like we like similar scents. @Graillotion also has similar preferences and is a wealth of information!!

Thanks again!

[abierose]

Rossonna112 said:

Perry you are spot on. I use polyquat 7 at about 7% as a thicker(i love the moisturzing effects that it has on afro hair). It takes anywhere from about 6-7 days for my shampoo to settle. I figured it was polyquat. but wasent sure.

Thanks 

7% Polyquaternium 7? Whoa! That seems extreme! I love poly 7 as well but even at 2-3% it has a huge impact on the product’s viscosity…do you find it makes the product difficult to apply with this amount of poly 7? Just curious

[abierose]

ngarayeva001 said:

I will use a chance to throw my question too as we are lucky to have two experts here. I often combine germall plus and phenonip. The reason being, I buy ingredients from repackagers, and you can’t trust them on storing ingredients properly (I saw things like coconut oil in a ziplock bag and photosensitive materials in a transparent bottle). Also they decant ingredients million times allowing dust and bugs in. So I just assume all ingredients are compromised from day 1. Is there any reason not to do this. I figured there are no overlapping compounds in these two preservative blends so I won’t go over recommended limit. Thank you in advance @PhilGeis and @chemicalmatt

You mention “storing ingredientats” and this is something I am currently in the middle of researching as I need to rearrange and figure out the most efficient way to store my ingredients…do you have a system down for storing your ingredients that works and that prevents ingredients from going bad before their expiration date? 
If this needs to be started as a new discussion, I totally understand….just curious as I am in dire need of a system to store my ever growing ingredient stores!

[abierose]

PhilGeis said:

ngarayeva001 said:

@PhilGeis Dr. Geis, it always fascinated me how some bacteria manage to multiply in steam distilled water. 

Yes!  Even more bizarre - raw materials: fungal (Penicillim spores) contamination citric acid, ZPT suspension for antidandruff shampoo with P. aeruginosa, concentrated disinfectant quat active raw material with P. aeruginosa, B. cepacia in 70% ethanol (not mine - in literature).

products: colonies of Kurthia sp. isolate in/on soap bar (with milk), Bacillus sp. isolate in pH 9 built hard surface cleaner, Halomonas in high pH liquid laundry 

Isn’t nature fascinating!! And frustrating too ????

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

Oh…and emulsifier inclusion rate looks low.

I kinda thought that too. I’ll bump that up. Thank you!!

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

Tips:
Need a chelator.
Rosehip seed oil is very fragile….need an antioxidant with an oil like that.

Ahh, good to know! Are there any chelators you could recommend or that you prefer..? EDTA or any of the natural alternatives like the Dermofeel Series…?

[abierose]

I should note that the “CreamMaker BLEND” I have listed is Glyceryl Stearate and Peg-100 Stearate and the LuxGlide N350 is (INCI: 

Diheptyl Succinate (and) Capryloyl Glycerin/Sebacic Acid Copolymer) ????

[abierose]

RedCoast said:

Despite their “soothing” properties, aloe and green tea can cause allergic contact dermatitis. It’s rare, but it happens-there are dozens of phytochemicals that can be responsible for it.

Yes, I know a few people with sensitivity and/or allergic reactions to Aloe, myself included, which is why I never use it in any of my formulations. 

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

Yes…I would also like to be a test subject for your hair regrowth cream.  That is impressive how that eyebrow grew back.  I have thinning hair, and would like to test the product for this alternative use.  You can PM me on this forum.

All though I am concerned with the skin lesions that develop within 5-10 minutes of use.  Should I be concerned?

This one managed to dye her hair in that short amount of time as well!

????

No but seriously, having been in the graphics design industry for the last 20 years, I know  photoshop like the back of my hand and let me tell you, you can do ANYTHING in photoshop…whiter teeth? No problem! Thicker hair? Sure thing! Less wrinkles? Easy peasy! Common sense? Well, even photoshop has its limitations ????‍♀️
If it sounds “too good to be true”, it probably is. 

[abierose]

@MattTheChemist and @Pharma - Awesome!! Glad to help! :smiley:

[abierose]

MattTheChemist said:

Has anyone ever found any of the silicone alternatives such as the Cetiol or LexFeel family of materials effective in achieving the anti-soaping properties of silicones? Curious to see if anyone has experience with these. Thank you!

I’ve used LuxGlide N350 (INCI: Diheptyl Succinate (and) Capryloyl Glycerin/Sebacic Acid Copolymer) quite a bit and find it definitely cuts down the soaping and adds nice siliconey slip. Also NatraSil (INCI: Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables) adds a nice feel too. I also really like the feel of Daikon Seed Extract as well (INCI: Raphanus Sativus (Radish) Seed Extract).
Hope that helps!

[abierose]

MetalizeMerz said:

With these 3 surfactants, you can make any kind cleanser that you want. The point is that you will find it difficult to control the feel and viscosity of your product with just these 3 materials.

Are you saying that some different surficants would allow better control over the viscosity of the entire formula? Obviously I would have other ingredients in the formula besides just the surficants…is it usually the role of the surficants to control the viscosity of the end product? I’m new to surficants! Thank you for your help!

[abierose]

Perry said:

@abierose - if you look at the most popular Argan oil hair products, they contain silicones like Dimethicone and Cyclomethicone to get the effect. 

Yes, I believe that. In fact any time I find a hair product that I really like, it always has silicone. I love them and my hair does too!

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

Oh goodness!! Well, I’m glad I’m not the only one!  I have a bunch of fragrance oils that I will probably never use because out of all of them, I really only like 2 or 3 of them! Damn, ok, was hoping you would have a special fragrance supplier that you love and could direct me to but I guess my search will continue. One lesson I have learned is that I shouldn’t buy more than 1 or 2 small or sample sized fragrance oils from any one vendor, hehe ????

Yes…I have found the reviews posted on the vendor sites….are absolutely worthless….people will rave about things…that absolutely stink!

Hehehe….maybe as picky people we would have the same fav’s?

We should compare notes.

Yes!! Let’s!!