[Abdullah]

Mayday said:

I wonder if @LisaLise could help? I’ve been curious about konjac glucomannan since I read her blog posts on it being nearly equivalent to carbomer.

* https://www.lisaliseblog.com/2012/05/konjac-glucomannan-vs-carbomer-whos.html
* https://www.lisaliseblog.com/2012/04/konjac-glucomannan-plant-based-answer.html

Also that it a synergizes with xanthan gum to massively increase viscosity with such small amounts, and I wonder if that combination may avoid the pilling effect while keeping the texture pleasant.

* https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/443-What-you-need-to-know-about-natural-gums-part-II-Gum-blending.html

Thanks 
Very informative

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

There should be no effective difference.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

@ketchito no need but i go low pH because of better conditioning, being more gentle, needing less preservative. 

Every surfactant SLS/SLES/CAPB/APG is at it’s full strength at pH 4. So why would they have less detergency? 

[Abdullah]

DAS said:

It’s safe, although you already have high asm. I wouldn’t want that near my eyes. 
@Mayday yes, it’s safe. In fact major brands use HCl and NaOH to adjust pH.
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=182.1057

https://incidecoder.com/ingredients/hydrochloric-acid

Sometimes Cosing db is handy: https://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-databases/cosing/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.simple

Thanks 

Of course i will reduce that amount of anionic surfactant.

[Abdullah]

Have you used powder surfactant before? You may not like the powder forms.

I have used SLS powder and it needed too much acid to adjust pH. 

Also have used AOS powder and couldn’t dissolve it properly so i decided not to go for powders.

[Abdullah]

You have many question marks  but i don’t know how many questions are there. So if you give each question a number it will be easy to answer that mach questions. 

If you increase the temperature to 10-15 degree above melting point of a butter and then cool it, no grainy will be there. 
If you are mixing butters, increase the temperature 10-15 degree above melting point of the ingredient that has the highest melting point, the mex them for a bit longer or use high shear mixer and when it cools there will be no grainy. 

The problem with those blogs is that may be they don’t introduce enough heat or not enough mixing or not enough heat when mixing so they don’t melt properly and so don’t mix properly. 
Or maybe they are doing so purposely to create a problem and then talk about it and solve it in different ways in order for you to watch their blog or videos more often.

[Abdullah]

Glucosides are between 10-15.

Others are above 15

[Abdullah]

If i use expensive preservatives, i would use hydroxyacetophenone+ phenoxyethanol. 

Hydroxyacetophenone is less expensive, more effective and has extra benefits than tropolone.

I have seen many datas not from manufacturers that show how hydroxyacetophenone improves the preservation when combined with other preservatives. 

[Abdullah]

chemicalmatt said:

@Abdullah you have me there. I can only guess how much acid is in lemon juice squeezed. Probably more than I know.

I did some google search and found that it has 5-6% citric acid. I hope the information is correct.

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt unfortunately i use and have only tetrasodium EDTA available. 

Is it the EDTA part that chelates iron or the sodium part? I mean the only difference is that tetrasodium has two more sodium to make it more water soluble. Is these other different? 
So what is causing tetrasodium EDTA not chelate iron at pH 4? 

[Abdullah]

@Perry thanks a lot

[Abdullah]

3≥ is the percentage is my first post

[Abdullah]

@Syl thanks for sharing your experience. 

I am going for cooking oils because i think all oils are almost the same in terms of functionality in lotion. And cooking oil is much cheaper.

Also as they are for eating and cooking, they may be stabilized in some way to prevent rancidity. This is my assumption. 

[Abdullah]

@Perry suspend What? Does it suspend EGDS or EGMS in shampoo? 

If yes, how much of it can suspend 1% EGMS? 

[Abdullah]

Tropolone may be a simple add in for A. Brasiliensis.

This data is from supplier but 0.005% tropolone with ~1% phenoxyethanol is a patented preservative. So it may really be effective that’s why they have patented it.

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt good. How much citric acid would be about the same as that in 10g fresh lemon water? 

[Abdullah]

@ketchito in an emulsion, is this free water only not part of emulsion or it does not have anything like preservative or polymer or other water soluble ingredients too?

In emulsion, is there only some free water or some free oil too that is not part of emulsion? 

[Abdullah]

Or you may use glyceryl Caprylate if it is available cheaper. It also increases the viscosity of shampoo. Although Laurate may be better. 

[Abdullah]

Pharma said:

pKa values will give some indications though, at pH above +/- neutral, metal hydroxide formation starts messing with theory and 1+1=2 logic.

Most acids only work well in their dissociated (basic) form. Unlike citric and edetic acid, gluconic acid does not just interact with their carboxylates but also with its pH independent hydroxy groups (‘good’ chelates also contain amine groups which react in an opposite way to pH). Interactions with hydroxyls are quite weak but may still work to a degree; whether or not this suffices remains questionable. I doubt that these metal complexes will be inaccessible to microbes and there’s indications (publications) which have me believe that those low pH complexes are even worse regarding fatty acid oxidation than free metals (unless the increased solubility draws them out of the oil phase).

Phytic acid on the other hand has such low pKa values that it’s essentially always deprotonated enough to complex metals even at very low pH whilst it simply precipitates at higher pH (which, from a ‘get the metals out of the way’ perspective, is the best outcome though might not be from a cosmetic point of view if there’s too much deposits).

Citric acid will not properly work below pH 5 whilst gluconic acid is maybe better than nothing. EDTA as an example has 100 to 1’000 times tighter binding to metal ions at pH 7 compared with pH 5. Unfortunately, there seems to be no useful investigations for poor chelates such as gluconic acid. It’s a PITA to find anything useful regarding gluconic acid metal complexes.

@p@Pharma 
1. If we use EDTA at pH 4-4.5, does the chelating power for all metals decrease or it decrease or even don’t chelate some metals and don’t change for some other metals?

2. I am currently using 0.2% EDTA in shampoo and lotion both at pH 4-4.5. if EDTA doesn’t work well at that pH, should i increase the amount of EDTA so it work better or should i decrease or even not use it because it doesn’t work well at that low pH no matter what? 

[Abdullah]

Let me tell you something 

From the LoI it looks that it is a pretty basic non conditioning shampoo that most people would not like. If you give it to someone to compare it with another shampoo they would like that other shampoo. And all the chemists here know better than me that how this shampoo will be in cleaning, foaming and conditioning and no one would copy it. So don’t be afraid of sharing the percentage

Because without percentage people don’t know how much of an ingredient you have added there as perry thought you may be adding to much oil.

If you are adding too much EGDS that will be the cause. Reduce it to 0.5-2% 

If you are adding vitamin e or an extract and thinking it is preservative your product may be contaminated and the cause of this problem. 

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

It’s not from a book. It’s from an article in the Journal of the Society of Cosmetic Chemists. Specifically…

Silicones as conditioning agents in shampoos

Author

YAHAGI, K
Kao Corp., Tokyo Research Laboratories, Sumida-ku, Tokyo 131, Japan

Source

Journal of the Society of Cosmetic Chemists. 1992, Vol 43, Num 5, pp 275-284 ; ref : 6 ref

Found it 

Thanks a lot

[Abdullah]

@ketchito where does free water come from?

Do you mean that in a closed system some water will evaporate and condensate and then this process will stop and no more water will evaporate and condensate again until you open it? 

[Abdullah]

@Bill_Toge does this water that evaporates has all the water soluble ingredients from an emulsion including preservatives or it is just water that evaporates?

If it is just water then doesn’t it make more problem specially in microbial contamination part because it doesn’t have preservative in it? 

When water comes out of your product, does it matter if goes out of your packaging or it condensate on inner surface of the lid and help your product not to dry out? 
I mean unless you mix that water back to your product that we usually don’t it doesn’t mix with your product back so doesn’t do anything for the product. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Analytically.  This was needed to stay under EU cosmetic directive labeling re. contains formaledehyde. 

Thanks

[Abdullah]

MarkBroussard said:

Salicylic Acid will be effective for all forms of acne … SA’s function is to prevent the dead skin cells from plugging the hair follicles and the plugging of hair follicles is common to all forms of acne.

Thanks