[PeaceLoveNaturals]

so than would you say when it comes to surfactants in a shampoo the more might be the better? what could you imagine the % of usage is for these in this formula. After the surfactants its literally glycerin, tons of extracts, some vitamins and a preservative.

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

@Pharma thanks so much I really appreciate it. you think something like Benzyl Alcohol (and) Ethylhexylglycerin or Gluconolactone (and) Sodium Benzoate are good choices for most cosmetic formulas?

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

@Agate Kinetik Technologies Inc.

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

ngarayeva001 said:

What do you expand them to do? If it’s brightening, neither works. If for claims, all work

yes its skin brightening, lightning…I have heard that proper studies have been dont on arbutin with success

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

@Pharma do you prefer a natural preservative over another. Im trying to follow COSMOS. I have a list of them but not sure how to know if one works better for a particular project. I tried to find the pdf you mentioned. couldnt find it

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

I found an American supplier. Thank you

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Thank you

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Thanks just went to the site.

When you say lower pH, do you mean 4-5? Everyone seems to want to make things a 5.5 so Im still tackling that as well.

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Aqua (water), Sodium Lauroamphoacetate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Hydroxypropyl Starch Phosphate, Fragrance (parfum), Ricinus Communis (Castor) Seed Oil, Nigella Sativa (Black) Seed Oil, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Oil, Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Oil, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Persea Gratissima (Avocado) Oil, Vitis Vinifera (Grape)Seed Oil, DMDM Hydantoin, Citric Acid.

This is the product. Im doing a lot of market research and ingredient look ups right now so I can make an example formulation so its just a lot of computer time which is sucking my brain haha! 

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Pharma said:

Usually, it’s below 0.5%. Because this is below 1%, it means, the order isn’t necessarily errr… in order. If you get what I mean .

You think I could assume the pectin may be at 1%. Just trying to think of a starting point for my testing. What preservative would you recommend for a similar formula that is COSMOS approved? I have Optiphen Plus but its not approved. I may just keep it for my samples. Are you familiar with Luicidal SF? Ive heard good and bad.

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Pharma said:

Glycerin content is greater than water content, the blend itself is self-preserved. By coincidence, I stumbled over some anhydrous oil gel formulations using Sapogel Q just yesterday. It’s by Skin Chakra and she’s also not preserving hers.

That’s good to hear. Im wanting to make an oil cleanser. I think having it in a gel form would be a nice sensory experience for the customer and maybe beginners to oil cleansing would feel more comfortable slabbing oils all over their face. It can be a strange experience at first. But I can only seem to find this ingredient on international websites. Im in America. Can I purchase this product and use it just fine or do I need to find an domestic trade version of it? I saw a tutorial on how to use it and it seems so simple and straightforward. It also turns milky when you add water which again is an awesome sensory experience.

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

ok great thanks. would there be a more effective ingredient in a 2 in one cleansing cream? 

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Pharma said:

Correct, take tocopherol and not tocopheryl acetate.

First, tocopherol but not tocopheryl acetate protects your product and, as it seems, it’s more active in the skin as well because the acetate is too stable to hydrolyse within useful time. Theory meets biology… (and not that long ago I bought some toco acetate and thought it’s the real deal but alas, you never stop learning.)

Thanks so much. If the Toco is listed right before the Pectin, the %of the pectin cant be very high. Is toco usage at about 2% or even less?

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Perry said:

Fatty alcohols are used in shampoos to make the product look opaque. They aren’t put in there for any functional benefit. They will actually slightly reduce the effectiveness of the shampoo. A better option would be Glycol Monostearate as a pearling agent.

Thank you, thats in my shopping cart for my ingredients as we speak

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

I will say that despite the marketing terms I am someone who has been very attracted to these concepts. Many women like to wash their hair, but washing your hair more then a few times a week seems stripping to many women. Be it ignoramus haha but I love my cowashes. I do feel they “cleanse” better than a traditional conditioner (the ones marketed as Cleansing Conditioners/Cream Cleanser etc.) I have seen some with a mild surfactant, so maybe it “cleanses” just good enough for women to loosen access oil that makes your hair feel clean without squeakiness and add some moisture. I can only cowash twice in a row and then I do feel I need to shampoo. 

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Pharma said:

1. Enough to form a gel. % depend on pectin quality.

2. It’s sweet. Should some get into a customers mouth…

3. No idea, it’s not INCI conform AFAIK

4. Tocopheryl acetate is not vitamin E but an inactive derivative thereof

5. Preservations of that product is questionable

6. I wouldn’t use it as a benchmark… but that’s just my personal opinion

It works great though haha. That’s why I like it, as well its hard to find more “natural” gel alternatives. There are flax gels as well. I agree about the preservative. And whats a better alternative to tocopheryl, pure Vit E im assuming? This is all I hear of in many formulas. 

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Thank you. Yes I looked up what is in it, but this is a blend yes?…is there a different trade name offered here in the states with the same blend, or can I use this one even if I have to purchase it outside the states?Perry said:

The INCI name according to the manufacturer is…

Glycerin & Water & Quillaja Saponaria Wood Extract & Saponaria

Officinalis (Soapwort) Extract

You should still use a preservative if you use this, it has water in it.

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Ok thank you

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Ok thank you for clarifying  

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Perry said:

I’m afraid you’ve been misinformed on a few subjects.

Coconut oil is not astringent! It is an emollient.  The FDA defines astringents as “…(products) applied to the skin or mucous membranes for a local and limited protein coagulant effect.”  Coconut oil does not have this effect. Coconut oil does absorb into hair to some extent but this has nothing to do with astringency. I wonder where this myth originated.  And hair doesn’t have a mucous membrane either but I digress.  

To your specific questions…

1. Coconut oil is made up of triglycerides. They are chemically broken down into Fatty Acids prior to making them into surfactants. This makes them completely different molecules & materials. For example, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate can be made from coconut oil or palm kernel oil. It can also be made from Petroleum. There is chemically no difference. 

2.  What @Pharma said.

3.  Micellar water will not work to clean hair. It really doesn’t even work to clean skin but some people like it.

 

Sorry for the improper terminology. I do wonder why many people do become dried out with coconut oil then. Myself, I cannot use coconut oil on my skin. After just a few times my skin become dry and itchy. Also when used on the hair for many women it creates dryness, dullness and creates frizz and no moisture at all. Could it be the amount used in a product or maybe someones ethnicity or simply an intolerance? Maybe the correct term isnt “astringent” but does coconut have certain properties that can be stripping? I know its highly antibacterial yes? Could this be a factor? 

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Pharma said:

1. Coconut oil and coconut derived surfactants are two separate things and have basically nothing in common (except that the raw material grew on the same tree).

You could simply switch to palm oil derivatives :smiley: (these can be nearly identical to coconut oil derivatives).

2. Depending on what causes sensitivity, some surfactants may probably cause symptoms in highly allergic persons. Although, it’s rather unlikely that common allergens (proteins) could survive all synthesis, separation, and purification steps a surfactant runs through.

3. The decyl moiety from decyl glucoside might actually come from coconut oil . Very often, it’s not clear from where exactly the fatty part of a surfactant comes from. These days, it’s often palm oil which is, depending on supply/demand, often mixed with coconut oil. Probably due to the ‘palm oil free’ trend, hydrogenated canola and sunflower oil become a new source for longer chain fatty acids. If you read ‘decyl’, ‘capryl’ or the like, it’s usually coconut or palm oil. Unfortunately ‘palmityl’ and ‘stearyl’ may be derived from many things such as palm, canola, tallow, and even coconut.

Thank you for the great info!

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Pharma said:

Starch

Seriously, the answer is just ‘starch’.

Really? haha thanks so much.

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Perry said:

Yes, it’s just a marketing story. Consumers have the (mistaken) belief that oil is good for their hair. They seem not to know how shampoos work. The whole point of using a shampoo is to remove oil. 

Marketers just exploit misinformed consumers and add oils in shampoos for making claims. 

Thank you for confirming. I was told to use fatty alcohols instead?

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Perry said:

I would think, the less chemical exposure to a baby the better. So keep it simple and don’t use any extracts. Not only do you not have any way of knowing what is actually in an extract, they don’t provide any benefit.

I’m a big believer in keeping things simple. Less ingredients is better.

You really don’t need anything more than Petrolatum. 

Thanks so much I def agree.

[PeaceLoveNaturals]

Perry said:

but their are numerous videos of women showing how to bring down the pH of castile soap, Google it

I have no doubt you can find lots of these. But most importantly…

Anyone can write anything (or make videos) about anything on the Internet

If you want to learn a subject, Google & YouTube are terrible places to find out what’s true. Certainly, there is some good stuff out there. I use it for research too. But the vast majority of things that are published is rubbish. 

The first thing to check whenever you see something on the Internet is the qualifications of the people making the content. If someone doesn’t have a chemistry degree or years of formulating experience at a reputable company, you should not rely on what they are saying. Even this is not always reliable as there can be financial motivation to get you to believe certain things that aren’t true. 

Bottom line…don’t use Google or YouTube as your only / primary source of information.  

perfect reason as to why I came here! haha Thanks so much I will enjoy learning from everyone.