Paprik
Forum Replies Created
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EDTA is anionic, therefore it does not belong into cationic system.
[Although I saw many products including it. But from chemical point of view there is not reason].
And as Abdullah mentioned, you should be using distilled water.If the product gets too viscous after some time, you might have some water/packaging issues. Something like evaporation perhaps.
Have you measured and tested specific gravity during stability testing?Look also at your formula. No point of using so many cationic surfactants. All do basically the same thing. Stick to one and if you want to have more of them for marketing reasons, add them at 0.1% or less.
I would think about adding some gum for stability - Guar Hydroxypropropyltrimonium Chloride.
Try to simplify your formula - go with one lipid, one cationic surfactant and see how it goes. It it will work, you can slowly add ingredients.
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I actually bought Marine Collagen too and it does have fishy odour.
Even the website says that :Please note: this product is derived from fish scales and naturally has a slight, musky-fishy odour. Use of a fragrance may be required depending upon the amount used in the finished product.
So if it is similar product, it might be ok. Just check expiration date? -
@drjayseesunish, hehe, you’re too kind
I am faaar from being expert in anything. But so far I’ve been focusing on O/W emulsions and currently looking into foaming products.
You can ask anything, I am pretty sure other members will happily help
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Final product pH is important. It must be within the range that supports actives, preservative, etc …
Usually you do not need to adjust pH of your water phase.
Even if you do and you add some kind of actives at the end (or preservatives for that matter, such as Geogard ECT) it will shift your pH.
So finish your product [completely] and adjust final pH.
The preservative usually does not get destroyed by “wrong” pH. It only won’t be effective.
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If I say surfactant and emulsifier they both are, chemically speaking, surfactants.
So surfactant can be the one that foams (cleans) and also the one that is being used in emulsions (emulsifier). Sorry if I confused you before.I am not an expert on pomades, but yes, I believe you would use some kind of surfactant (emulsifier) to build viscosity.
Or if you’re making W/O emulsion, you would use low HLB emulsifier. -
You would need to supply more information.
Please supply your formula and method if possible … -
moomin said:Thanks for all your ‘supporting’ advice! NOT!
Here is where I am at, I wanted to find a natural deodorant, I found a recipe that included milk of magnesia and essential oils, it worked wonderfully for me (no burns! fancy that!) and so I thought I might make something similar as a sellable product, not using milk of mag but using the stuff in it. I’m not a chemist, don’t have a clue about chemicals, hence why I’m on here, but I just didn’t realise that I would be meeting with a group of guffawing henrys, who think it’s hilarious and ridiculous that someone doesn’t understand about chemistry! well sorry I got it wrong, I misunderstood this site for support and help!I am sorry if you feel this way.
However, you must realise we are not a bunch of mommy bloggers. We deal with real life scenarios and issues. We do use real science here. And if we see a problem, we deal with that in that way.We do help for free, only for our good feelings and some people abuse it.
Try to take the advise from a different angle and approach your problem with all the help you got. Or describe your problem in different way.Happy and safe formulating.
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What exactly do you need to determine?
I am not sure what you want to calculate.Share your formula, share your problem or what would you like to improve and after that we can help.
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I do not have any source for this, [hopefully someone has], but the main thing you would worry about is actives. The active or the product type would tell you what pH do you need.
Let’s say you are formulating with ascorbic acid .. the best pH for its stability (even it will still be around 2 months) would be 3 - 3.5.
Conditioners need lower pH for its strong charge - 4 - 4.5.
Other active might need pH 6-7, therefore you would formulate for this pH (I believe MAP would need this) etc ….So investigate every ingredients, how to incorporate it into your formula and stick to it.
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You need to realise that surfactant has much more stronger charge in compare to cationic gum/polymer.
If you would mix cationic (BTMS, Cetrimonium Chloride … ) and anionic (Sodium Coco Sulfate, Sodium Cocoyl Methyl Isethionate…) they would act as magnets - cling together and would form insoluble substances.I said that BTMS is suitable for hair masks .. also for pomades. Along with non-ionic emulsifiers.
You usually use anionic for its cleansing ability (foaming surfactants) or emulsifying properties (emulsifiers) …
Hope this makes more sense now?
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drjayseesunish said:
@Paprik thank you!
@Paprik , Is it suitable for formulation of hair mask, a leave on product? Or we can use only in hair shampoo?
It is very suitable in hair mask and also in leave on products. However check regulations, you usually use only little amount in leave on products.
Shampoos are usually anionic (negatively charged) so it is not suitable to use it in shampoo at all. [You can use cationically charged gum or polymer tho .. such as Polyquaternium-7 and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride].
Happy formulating.
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drjayseesunish said:Paprik said:BTMS-50 is a surfactant (emulsifier) and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimoniumchloride is a gum. It is always a good practise to include gum in your formulas for better stability. As HPTM is positively charged it is also beneficial. So yeah, no problem there
PS. no point would be adding 2 surfactants, such as BTMS with Cetrimonium Chloride or your mentioned Steartrimonium Chloride.
@Paprik can I use bhms 50 in making skin moisturizer lotion? As you said it is surfactant.
It is a surfactant, however cationic one. Therefore it is not really suitable for hydrating products.
For standard emulsions you should use anionic and non-ionic ingredients (leave cationic ones for hair care). -
MySkinRecipes - hell yeah! I ordered once, currently preparing another order. Once you order and pay, they send you all datasheets, COA, SDS’s etc … very good. They have decent amount of info on each ingredient.
And shipment was not crazy at all .. from Thailand to NZ was $50 and it took a week only!! For example from NewDirection (Australia) it is about $70!! And Trulux (also AUS) similar cost. So for me it is not brainer
And the option that you can order custom amount is just amazing.
I was super happy with them so far.
Happy browsing their website. I could not get enough and was spending waaaay too much time inspecting all ingredients they have
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Hmm, just realised … as it is a lube and most likely will be used on specific areas, check all ingredients are suitable for that use.
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Lavender hydrosol = expensive. You would need to use quite high input to get some decent aroma. But if budget allows, why not.
Aroma oil = you mean fragrance oil or essential oil?
Fragrance oil = cheaper, don’t need to use an antioxidant, if solubilised properly you should not worry about separation.
Essential oil = need of antioxidant, again, if solubilised correctly, you should not worry about separation. -
Haha, love the answers. I would actually answer the same way : Nope.
Seriously nothing compares to them. -
As mentioned, Niacinamide is very stable.
However, personally I would add that after emulsification. Where the temperature would drop to at least <70°C. Is it water soluble, so it would go into your formula very easily. -
BTMS-50 is a surfactant (emulsifier) and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimoniumchloride is a gum. It is always a good practise to include gum in your formulas for better stability. As HPTM is positively charged it is also beneficial. So yeah, no problem there
PS. no point would be adding 2 surfactants, such as BTMS with Cetrimonium Chloride or your mentioned Steartrimonium Chloride.
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1. I have in my mind that pure Tocopherol is corrosive to the skin, but I cannot find anything to support that on the internet now.
But 5% seems a lot. Cocoa butter is quite “resistant” to rancidity. Try to lower it (add that as a last step before pouring it off).
I believe the Beeswax is also high, not sure how your product looks like, but it must be pretty hard?2. With the extract it depends what base do they have. I believe they are not glycerin based as they would need to list the glycerin.
The Hyaluronic acid could be dispersed only in the product and can be there at 0.001% .. so can the extract tho.
The main thing there is castor oil and Shea butter in my opinion.
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There is always a chance for instability and separation
You can, of course, add that into your emulsion, just follow correct processes (temperature, antioxidant if required, etc.. ) And test it out.
Happy formulating
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I would check old discussions mate. There’s been some good ones about Urea.
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I am not sure if I understand properly.
Are you looking for an emulsifier? Essentially you cannot mix hydrophilic and hydrophobic ingredients without something that will hold them together.Polysorbate 80 could help, but only to, more or less, solubilise some of the lipid into water.
PS. What hydrophilic antioxidant do you have?
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This was my first one long time ago … sorry, not sorry, but trash
Good maybe for water, but definitely not for products. If you are serious about formulating, please get something better.
At this time I have this one - PH220. And you buy only electrodes after. If you take care of them they will last you a long time. Cost was $130NZD - for the meter and it already came with PE11 electrode. -
Hello,
I’m sorry to hear that. You would need to supply your whole formula, so we can take a look and see what could possibly went wrong.
(Stabiliser, chelating agent, preservative etc … ) -
Sure,
https://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-databases/cosing/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.simple
search for an ingredient. Find the ingredient, open it and you can see Cosmetics Regulation provisions (Annexis) and SCCS Opinions. They are usually loooong articles, so if you have problems with sleeping you can read them all, oooor just jump to the end to the conclusion and find your answers.
Hope this helps?