Cosmetic Science Talk

Cosmetic Science discussion form. For people who want for formulate cosmetics and get advice from other formulators around the world.

Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Conditioner not stabilizing

  • Conditioner not stabilizing

    Posted by CzarXavier on October 20, 2022 at 8:36 pm

    Hello, I’m trying to make a conditioner designed for a pump bottle with a texture similar to a lotion (Cetaphil to be exact). Unfortunately, none of my formulas are ever able to pump all the way through to the end of the bottle, I can usually use anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of the product before it gets too thick and simply won’t pump out anymore. My latest formula was able to get around 3/4 of the bottle and I’ve listed the formula below. If anyone could point me in the right direction as to how to resolve this issue, I would greatly appreciate it!

    Conditioner Formula:

    Phase A:
    Distilled water - 79.7%
    Glycerin - 1.0%
    Tetrasodium EDTA - 0.2%

    Phase B:
    Coconut oil - 0.5%
    Cocoa Butter - 0.5%
    Yucca Root Oil - 0.5%
    Centrimonium - 3.0%
    Behentrimonium - 1.0%
    Stearamidopropyl dimethylamine - 1.0%
    Cetearyl Alcohol - 3.0%
    Cetyl Alcohol - 2.5%

    Phase C:
    Dimethicone - 2.0%
    Polyquaternium-7 - 2.0%
    Panthenol - 0.5%
    Fragrance - 1.5%
    Phenoxyethanol SA - 1.0%
    Citric Acid - 0.1%

    ketchito replied 3 months, 2 weeks ago 4 Members · 7 Replies
  • 7 Replies
  • ketchito

    Member
    October 24, 2022 at 11:27 am

    I believe EDTA is used in cationic formulas for other reasons, like boosting antimicrobial properties (I recall some eye drops that used a mixture of EDTA and Benzalkonium chloride for improved antimicrobial efficacy) and to remove metal ions that could favor unwanted reactions (like fragrance oxidation). Also, some chelants are deposited on hair fibers to prevent dye color change (dyes can be affected by the presence of metal ions).

  • Paprik

    Member
    October 23, 2022 at 7:49 am

    EDTA is anionic, therefore it does not belong into cationic system. 
    [Although I saw many products including it. But from chemical point of view there is not reason]. 
    And as Abdullah mentioned, you should be using distilled water. 

    If the product gets too viscous after some time, you might have some water/packaging issues. Something like evaporation perhaps.
    Have you measured and tested specific gravity during stability testing?

    Look also at your formula. No point of using so many cationic surfactants. All do basically the same thing. Stick to one and if you want to have more of them for marketing reasons, add them at 0.1% or less. 

    I would think about adding some gum for stability - Guar Hydroxypropropyltrimonium Chloride. 

    Try to simplify your formula - go with one lipid, one cationic surfactant and see how it goes. It it will work, you can slowly add ingredients. 

  • CzarXavier

    Member
    October 21, 2022 at 3:11 pm

    Abdullah said:

    Abdullah said:

    For viscosity, remove EDTA and reduce fatty alcohols.

    I live in AZ which has notoriously bad hard water. Wouldn’t I want to keep the EDTA in this case? 

    This is a cationic product. I don’t think hard water will be an issue but you should use filtered water anyway and that is not so hard water. 

    In my experience EDTA increase the viscosity of BTMS a lot.

    Ok I will try this out, thanks for the tip!

  • Abdullah

    Member
    October 21, 2022 at 1:43 pm

    Abdullah said:

    For viscosity, remove EDTA and reduce fatty alcohols.

    I live in AZ which has notoriously bad hard water. Wouldn’t I want to keep the EDTA in this case? 

    This is a cationic product. I don’t think hard water will be an issue but you should use filtered water anyway and that is not so hard water. 

    In my experience EDTA increase the viscosity of BTMS a lot.

  • CzarXavier

    Member
    October 21, 2022 at 1:29 pm

    Abdullah said:

    For viscosity, remove EDTA and reduce fatty alcohols.

    I live in AZ which has notoriously bad hard water. Wouldn’t I want to keep the EDTA in this case? 

  • CzarXavier

    Member
    October 21, 2022 at 1:27 pm

    ketchito said:

    @CzarXavier If your issue is that your conditioner gets very thick, as @Abdullah mentioned, you could reduce the fatty alcohols. You can also reduce Behentrimonium chloride a bit, as long as it doesn’t impact your stability (perhaps drop from 1.0%  to 0.8%).

    I’ve tried reducing the fatty alcohols, however, this results in a runny texture which I do not like. I will try reducing the behentrimonium though and see if that works. Also, I’ve reviewed the ingredient list of some lotions (including Cetaphil) and they usually contain Ceteareth-20 and/or Glyceryl Stearate. Do you think these would help in my formula? 

  • ketchito

    Member
    October 21, 2022 at 2:47 am

    @CzarXavier If your issue is that your conditioner gets very thick, as @Abdullah mentioned, you could reduce the fatty alcohols. You can also reduce Behentrimonium chloride a bit, as long as it doesn’t impact your stability (perhaps drop from 1.0%  to 0.8%).

  • Abdullah

    Member
    October 21, 2022 at 1:57 am

    For viscosity, remove EDTA and reduce fatty alcohols.