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@P89 Does the milky look stays overnight? In some cases, you can have this look for few hours, and the your product becomes clear. Now, try to add alcohol slowly, letting the product get clear after every addition. If this doesn’t help, then it means you need to add more solubilizer (or even better, more alcohol).

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@Abdullah As you experienced, that high amount of water should be better added using a homogenizer. 

Adding some water to speed cool down is a common practice, uually around 20-30%. Now, to know if your process went well, the only thing you can do is to test the stability (4 weeks at 45°C might give you a first look into it). In theory, adding that much water could cause phase inversion, but that depends also on the emulsifier you are using. 

Checking with a microscope could also be useful, but at the end, it’s your stability testing the one that matters more. 

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@esthetician922 You could alternatively use PEG-7 glyceryl cocoate instead, to keep the clarity of your product. 

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@Abdullah I don’t think there’s a big risk, if you fear for hydrolisis, as long as you don’t have your mixture sitting for too long (hydrolisis takes time). Also, high viscosity of decyl glucoside restricts/delays difussion, and the more hydrophobic components of the fragrance would go into decyl glucoside’s micelles. 

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@Michelle76 Just as a comment, silicones are not any less natural as Polyquaternium-10 or Cetrimonium chloride, and they have very particular properties not matched by other ingredients.

Also, even though Plantasense Olive LD is a nice ingredient, it’s very missleading that the supplier mentions everywhere the product being natural, since both of its components are esterified (one of them) and hydrogenated (both of them). 

Now, going to the issue in your formula, it’d really depend on what your final performance should be. Perhaps your consumer like the effect of ony adding PQ and Cetrimonium, or they might want something additional, you have to test your initial formula first.

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@MSPdude92 Since you’re using anionic surfactants (especially SLS), it’s necessary to add a chelating agent. Also, to improve the solubility of your fragrance, you could make a premix with Decyl glucoside and add the premix to the batch; nevertheless, if your fragrance is “too heavy”, you might still have some issues like loss in viscosity and haziness. Either you ask your fragrance supplier to rework the fragrance to be more compatible with your base, or you can add a solubilizer (like polysorbate). 

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@SarahOlivera I’d start by replacing Dimethicone 1000 by a lighter version (50 cst or less), which is usually more compatible. I’d advice you to check the compatibility charts for similar silicones: 

- https://www.shinetsusilicone-global.com/catalog/pdf/pc_us.pdf

- https://www.dow.com/content/dam/dcc/documents/en-us/productdatasheet/27/27-27/27-2742-01-dowsil-pmx-1507-fluid.pdf?iframe=true

- https://samaro.fr/pdf/FT/XIAMETER_FT_PMX_0245-CYCLOPENTASILOXANE___EN_.pdf

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@Ryan23294 I found a better synergy when mixing either Stearamidopropyl dimethylamine with Behentrimonium chloride, or Behentrimonium chloride with Cetrimonium chloride.

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@bahey As @Gordof mentioned, including a chelant such as Disodium EDTA could help. Also, if you have a bit more money, you could add an amine oxide (eg., Lauramine Oxide) to boost flash foam, but if you’re short in budget, then increasing Betaine should also work.

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@sohaibbg GHPC would work better in a anionic formula, but it depends if you want not only conditioning but also clarity. I never liked celluloses because they don’t give much yield value, you could try some of the Carbopols or Synthalens designed for low pH systems. 

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@frustratednovice That’s weird indeed. I’d expect that at least Cyclomethicone (and) dimethicone and Cyclomethicone would mix without issue. Are you somehow heating the mixture during the process? That could the dimethicone gum, so try to do the process without heat. Also, mix during the process of addition. Are Cyclomethicone (and) dimethicone, Cyclomethicone and C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate the only ingredients in your formula?

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@minhasshah I understand now. If your quaternary etherifying agent is 3-chloro-2-hydroxypropyl trimethylammonium chloride, then you’ll have sodium chloride as one of the reaction products (that is if you used sodium hydroxide to make your alkaline solution, which I believe is used to remove a proton from some hydroxyl group in guar gum, forming an alkoxide to act as nuclophile in the reaction). You’ll need to check which methods big manufacturers use to remove inorganic salts from your reaction mixture. 

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@minhasshah Perhaps I’m missing something, but regular cationic guar gums don’t require activation; rather, the addition of an acididic compound (like citric acid or EDTA) helps dissolve its coating to speed up the process, letting the polymer expand and hydrate. As @Perry confirmed, salt can be the reason for the separation (that seems to be the lamellar gel on the top), but it depends on your formula. Systems containing SLES, CAPB, quaternary polymers and DEA seem to be very sensitive to the amount of salt, especially at low pH. You could try making a sample at higher pH, to see if it emproves.

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@GeorgeBenson I’d try a sample without GuarCat and Polyquaternium-7. Also, if you have that much Behentrimonium, you wouldn’t need to use cationic polymers. If you want to increase stability of your formula as it is, I’d advise you to add a non ionic emulsifier with a very hydrophilic polar head (like Ceteareth-20).

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GeorgeBenson said:

Thanks for the input.

@ketchito is there a material you prefer over aqua sf-1 that also has suspending properties? Is synthalen comparable? 

As I mentioned, I prefer working with powder rheology modifiers. For a body wash, I’d use Carbopol 980, Carbopol Ultrez 20 or Carbopol Ultrez 21. In the case of Carbopol 980, it even shows viscosity building when low amount of salt is added (its low electrolyte tolerance shows when the polymer is used alone, but when in combination with anionic surfactants, its behavior is different). The only thing about them is that they are a bit harder to add them during the process compared to the liquid versions, but once you find the right conditions, things become easier. 

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They seem to be more “relaxed” indeed  . I wonder if these differences are mainly “political”, since both orgamizations review the same studies to set up these limits. 

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@GeorgeBenson All Carbopols are better incorporated using a turbine blade rather than a homogenizer (especially the highly reticulated ones), to prevent degradation of the polymer. I never had good experiences with Aqua SF-1 (higher formulation costs, higher levels of use to reach good viscosity, low shelf life), but I’d strongly suggest you follow Lubrizol guidelines when using it. 

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@sri If you don’t add an acid to the slurry to help dissolve the GHPTC’s coating and let it freely hydrate, then some particles might settle over time.

But the only way to check its stability in your formula, is to make the formula, since the more critical part is its interaction with the rest of the ingredients.

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Perry said:

@ketchito - Cetrimonium Chloride is only allowed in leave-on at 0.25%.

“Three quaternary ammonium salts used as cosmetic ingredients, cetrimonium chloride, cetrimonium bromide, and steartrimonium chloride, were found to be safe for use in rinse-off
products and safe for use at concentrations of up to 0.25% in
leave-on products by the Cosmetic Ingredient Review (CIR)
Expert Panel in 1997.” - from CIR-safety review.

Thank you @Perry! That’s for the North American market, right? I was considering only the european regulation in which CTC can be used in leave-on products for hair at up to 1.0%. They do make a distinction between leave ons, and the ones for face have a lower limit of CTC (0.5%):

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Learntounlearn said:

Graillotion said:

BTW….here is a quick example of how to test your polymerics and electrolytes:

Just mix the water, the Sodium Lactate, and the polymeric….shear it together, (at the levels you will formulate at) and observe for 24 hours.

Mystery solved.  My genius mentor says… if there is an incompatibility…it will manifest itself very quickly.

Thank you for Your detailed insight. 
One more qtn pls.. If I use emulsifiers that add viscosity and then include additional fatty alcohols, do I still add any thickener for better stability of end product? If the total oil phase is at 10%

The water dispersible thickener is used to thicken the water phase, so there’s not a big difference in viscosity between them; this would aid in the final stability of your formula.

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Anionoc surfactants have binding sites not only for metal ions but also for hydrogen protons, so the lower the pH, the more chances the oxygens in your anionics might be interacting with hydrogen ions, modifying the surface activity of those molecules. Not that your anionics won’t work at lower pH, but they’ll have less strenght. Also, SLES hydrolyzes at low pH (at lower than 4, the process is more rapid).

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Abdullah said:

DMDM hydantoin has 2 times more 5,5 dimethyl hydantoin than actual formaldehyde.
5,5 dimethyl hydantoin 36.3%
Formaldehyde 17.39%

Then how can it releases 2x formaldehyde per 5,5 dimethyl hydantoin when there is only 0.5x formaldehyde available per 5,5 dimethyl hydantoin in there? 

@Abdullah You need to make calculations in moles rather than in percentages or weight, since the reaction equations are expressed moles.

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Abdullah said:

@chemicalmatt unfortunately i use and have only tetrasodium EDTA available. 

Is it the EDTA part that chelates iron or the sodium part? I mean the only difference is that tetrasodium has two more sodium to make it more water soluble. Is these other different? 
So what is causing tetrasodium EDTA not chelate iron at pH 4? 

It’s the carboxylic groups in EDTA the ones that bind cations (iron in solution would have positive charge, same as sodium, and it’ll make them repel). But when you lower the pH, the carboxylic groups get protonated and unavailable to bind cations.

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@Hanson25 it might be the case that when adjusting the pH of your cocoamphoacetate, you’re changing its ionic state, making it interact better with your anionic surfactant, but I’ll need to check its pKa values.

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@sri Did the separation occur in the final product, or in a slurry you left for a week (only water + GHTC). Usually, the slurry should be prepared the same day of your manufacture (keep in mind that this slurry is prone to contamination if you don’t add a preservative).