[ketchito]

lesmith1018 said:

Hi there!
The pH is already around 5.5. 
Solubilizer to decrease viscosity? Increasing viscosity after the addition of essential oils is my goal.
Thank you so much,
Lauren

@lesmith1018  Yes. I meant that if you add a solubilizer, that one could decrease the viscosity of your system, so beware of the type and dosis of solubilizer. As @ngarayeva001 mentioned, SLES/CAPB is a very easy to thicken system, you just need the right amount of surfactants/salt. Also, you could try replacing part or all your solubilizer by Cocamide DEA or similar, which will boost viscosity of your system.

[ketchito]

There’s a very nice book called Cosmetic Formulation: Principles and Practice, you can find it online. Let me know if you have troubles getting it????

[ketchito]

@lesmith1018 Could you try lowering the pH to let’s say, 5.5? I think you’ll see a difference in viscosity. Also, solubilizers can decrease the viscosity of your surfactant system.

[ketchito]

zetein said:

@ketchito Thanks. In my region neutrogena gives “three-dimensional micelle cleansing tech” claim but its footnote tells “which means the surfactants work with ‘acrylates copolymer’ forming a three-dimensional network structure”.

Could probably be the polyethylene backbone and the lower aclohol residues are already hydrophobic enough to attract surfactant molecular. I guess.

Yes. Non charged polymers can also increase micelle formation, especially if they are hydrophobically modified. The initial interaction in this case would be tail-to-tail.

[ketchito]

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better ????

@ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry ????

Fordrjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better ????

@ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry ????

 For a dishwasher it’s not worthy to add rheology modifiers because of budget. But in water based cosmetics, you would need them. You couls thicken some surfactant bases products using just NaCl (growing micelles), but some systems are salt sensitive or you want to use the salt free claim. Xanthan gume comes in handy in these products, but the sensorial is not too appealing, and it doesn’t let you suspend some particles or oils. Carbomers are excellent at suspending stuff (due to the net of polymeric chains it has), but depending on your formula, it could be sensitive to salt (if you’re using it as well).

@ketchito ok got it. Some queries,1. if carbomer excellent emulsifier then can  we use in place  of bee wax in making lotion/cream  or we need to add different kind of emulsifier for getting our results.
2. I have seen someone  is making gel by using cationic guar gum in aqueous extract of aloe,( I believed carbomer only ) that made me to think, polymer can be used make gel but thing is what is difference between different gel? Is all no difference or their use depand on the quality or types of products as cleaning/ cosmetics/ medicinal etc.

1. In emulsions, you need to thicken both the water phase and the oil phase; in your case, the carbomer would thicken the water phase while the beeswax will thicken the oil phase. The advantage of a hydrophobically modified acrylic polymer over a regular carbomer, is that while the backbone resides and thickens the water phase, the hydrophobic side chain interacts with the oil phase, giving extra stabilization. 

2. You could make a gel with cationic guar, but it wouldn’t be so pleasant, plus you’ll have too much cationic guar depositing on your skin, and it’s preferably not having too many charged molecules there.

[ketchito]

Annyeap said:

ketchito said:

It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better ????

Does this mean that if i want to have more micelles in the shampoo, i need to make sure i have some cationic polymers so it can promote more micelles? Also, how do cationics promote micelle formation?

Yes, and also other type of molecules help on that (lile amphoteric surfactants). Cationic polymers promote micelle formation through their positive sites, which are like meeting points, where free anionic surfactant molecules get together (through their head groups) till they start interacting with each other and forming micelles.

[ketchito]

zetein said:

@ketchito

Does hydrophobic attraction works similarly? I remembered Johnson&johnson did something like this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4285286/

But in their ingredient lists its just called “acrylates copolymer”, not even “hydrophobically modified” like using fatty alcohol ethoxylates as side chains.

I believe it should say something like C10-30 alkyl acrylate crosspolymer, and the principleis more or less the same, but since the interaction os not head-to-head but rather tail-to-tail, the orientation of the micelle would be differente. Nevertheless, the way it improves mildness is through the same mechanism.

[ketchito]

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better ????

@ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry ????

Fordrjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better ????

@ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry ????

 For a dishwasher it’s not worthy to add rheology modifiers because of budget. But in water based cosmetics, you would need them. You couls thicken some surfactant bases products using just NaCl (growing micelles), but some systems are salt sensitive or you want to use the salt free claim. Xanthan gume comes in handy in these products, but the sensorial is not too appealing, and it doesn’t let you suspend some particles or oils. Carbomers are excellent at suspending stuff (due to the net of polymeric chains it has), but depending on your formula, it could be sensitive to salt (if you’re using it as well).

[ketchito]

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

1. Quite the contrary. Repulsion between ionic head groups doesn’t let micelles grow and arrange properly (packing). It’s like Tetrix, you want to build a structure tightly packed and with no holes, but ionic head groups will leave holes due to repulsion.

2. Simply put, yes (giant micelles have a very ordered arrangement)

3. Fatty alcohols are not surfactants while glyceryl stearate is (different molecular structure, different interfacial activity, different way of interacting with surfactants)

4. No in the case of CAPB (it’s a c12-14, too short a chain). In the case of glucoside, it should have a long alkyl chain. Just because the don’t have a net charge, doesn’t mean they’ll behave the same

@ketchito when you explain interestingly then people like me get the better understanding all these chemistry. I read reread your comments and erase many doubts.

@drjayseesunish Thank you for your kind words, it’s my pleasure.

[ketchito]

Abdullah said:

For glucoside i was talking about coco or lauryl glucoside.

Think more about cetyl or cetearyl glucoside for emulsifying. Lauryl and coco glucosides behave more like detergents.

[ketchito]

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

@saeedulfat The problem, as @Paprik mentioned, is that you might be oversalting your product. Ionic surfactants have a salt curve, which means, they increase in viscosity as you add salt, reaching a maximum, and then falling down. Some systems have more than one peak. I’d make a salt curve of your systems to know if you’re oversalting it or not.

@ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too????

Sometimes you have more than one peak in your salt curve, so you could keep adding salt. Alternatively, you could add water to dilute the effect of salt. Or add some rheology modifier.

[ketchito]

It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better ????

[ketchito]

1. Quite the contrary. Repulsion between ionic head groups doesn’t let micelles grow and arrange properly (packing). It’s like Tetrix, you want to build a structure tightly packed and with no holes, but ionic head groups will leave holes due to repulsion.

2. Simply put, yes (giant micelles have a very ordered arrangement)

3. Fatty alcohols are not surfactants while glyceryl stearate is (different molecular structure, different interfacial activity, different way of interacting with surfactants)

4. No in the case of CAPB (it’s a c12-14, too short a chain). In the case of glucoside, it should have a long alkyl chain. Just because the don’t have a net charge, doesn’t mean they’ll behave the same.

[ketchito]

@saeedulfat The problem, as @Paprik mentioned, is that you might be oversalting your product. Ionic surfactants have a salt curve, which means, they increase in viscosity as you add salt, reaching a maximum, and then falling down. Some systems have more than one peak. I’d make a salt curve of your systems to know if you’re oversalting it or not.

[ketchito]

Non ionic helps stabilize ionic emulsions. Because of ionic charge, ionic emulsifiers cannot grow big micelles, and non ionic surfactants help reduce repulsion between charged head groups.

[ketchito]

@drjayseesunish Just to contribute on the topic, cationic polymers make anionic cleansers milder by reducing the amount of single anionics, promoting micelle formation. This can also be done by CAPB, so increasing the level of CAPB and reducing the anionic can also work.

[ketchito]

@saeedulfat Usually CAPB and NaCl are added as the last ingredients, to reach the final viscosity (unless you have a cationic polymer, in which case, you could use some CAPB before your cationic polymer, to avoid direct interaction with your anionic surfactant). Also, why do you wait 24 hours to add CAPB? 

[ketchito]

Paprik said:

ketchito said:

@Abdullah Most structured cosmetic emulsions now have a lamellar gel network. Unfortunately (because not everyone has access to the equipment) the only way to really know if you got one is through x-ray diffraction. 

@ketchito, what would be the equipment? Is it homogeniser and some low shear overhead mixer? 

For properly checking if you actually made a LGN, you’d need to analyze it with an X-ray diffractometer (there might be other indirect ways, but this is the gold standard, at least for academics)

[ketchito]

@Graillotion When pairing emulsifiers, you should search for the ones with similar non-polar part (that’s why PEG-100 stearate/Glyceryl stearate and Cetearyl alcohol/Ceteareth-20 work that well as combo). It’s like if you want to build a support using Tetrix: if you don’t choose all the pieces for a tight structure, it will still work, but won’t hold as much weight as if you have chosen the right pieces not to leave any hole.  

[ketchito]

@Abdullah If the surfactant is affected by hard water, the loss in foam correlates with decreased solubility and hence, interfacial activity (and detergency).

[ketchito]

@Abdullah Usually, you don’t use a high quat load in skin products (yes, catonic surfactants are more irritating in leave on products, specially when applied on the skin), but a bit of Guar HPTC won’t hurt (usually, you feel a velvety dry fealing when skin is dry). Also, for skin cleansers I’d prefer a non-charged silicone (like Dimethicone). 

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@hway What’s the pH of the commercial product?

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@Abdullah There are actually many patents issued by P&G around the same SH backbone, with few changes. Try using Google patents, and write:  procter shampoo lamellar. You’ll see many entries.

[ketchito]

Pantene SH has a formula with very simple ingredients, but with a unique type of LGN (anionic surfactant-fatty alcohols) and equipment to manufacture it. You could still match its performance, but that’ll take you more money (than what they have for their formula) and testing.

[ketchito]

@Abdullah You should feel a difference with a Guar HPTC formula…maybe you need to increase the level. Also, you could add some silicone (same principle as in hair).