Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Some questions about (LGN) lamellar gel network

  • Some questions about (LGN) lamellar gel network

    Posted by Abdullah on April 11, 2022 at 1:37 pm

    1. These emulsifier combinations create lamellar gel network in emulsion.

    25% SSL+ 75%(GMS+cetyl alcohol)
    25% SPDMA+75%(GMS+cetyl alcohol)

    Am i correct in this?

    2. If we use glyceryl oleate instead of GMS, will it still make lamellar gel network?

    3. If we remove cetyl alcohol and only use 25% SSL+ 75%GMS or 25%SPDMA+ 75%GMS, will it make lamellar gel network?

    4. If we remove GMS and only use 25% SSL+ 75% cetyl alcohol or 25% SPDMA+ 75% cetyl alcohol, will it make lamellar gel network? 

    ketchito replied 1 year, 11 months ago 6 Members · 15 Replies
  • 15 Replies
  • ketchito

    Member
    April 12, 2022 at 1:32 pm

    @Abdullah Most structured cosmetic emulsions now have a lamellar gel network. Unfortunately (because not everyone has access to the equipment) the only way to really know if you got one is through x-ray diffraction. 

  • Abdullah

    Member
    April 12, 2022 at 2:37 pm

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah Most structured cosmetic emulsions now have a lamellar gel network. Unfortunately (because not everyone has access to the equipment) the only way to really know if you got one is through x-ray diffraction. 

    That is unfortunate 🤣

  • chemicalmatt

    Member
    April 12, 2022 at 8:48 pm

    @Abdullah the GMO does not like to support LLC formation like GMS does, so negative on that. The GMS alone may support with certain emulsifier combinations, but not a singular one like you describe. I’ve always used this ratio for LLC network formation: cetyl alcohol : glyceryl stearate @ 3:1. Seems to work even with those #%$@!! glycosides. The other “hack” with LLC is slow mixing while slow cooling. Too much shear at too steep a thermocline and you end up with soup.

  • Abdullah

    Member
    April 13, 2022 at 1:16 am

    @chemicalmatt thanks 

    1. What other emulsifier was combined with cetyl alcohol : glyceryl stearate @ 3:1 and what quantity? Or it is just these two?

    2. By too much shear, do you mean duration of homogenization or speed of homogenizer?
    I have inline homogenizer with 2800rpm speed.

    2. By slow mixing, do you mean mixing after the emulsion is formed?

  • Abdullah

    Member
    April 13, 2022 at 1:21 am

    i use this for in tank mixing.
    Adjustable speed 300-850rpm 1kw.

    Is this slow enough mixer?

  • Graillotion

    Member
    April 13, 2022 at 2:55 am

    @Abdullah the GMO does not like to support LLC formation like GMS does, so negative on that. The GMS alone may support with certain emulsifier combinations, but not a singular one like you describe. I’ve always used this ratio for LLC network formation: cetyl alcohol : glyceryl stearate @ 3:1. Seems to work even with those #%$@!! glycosides. The other “hack” with LLC is slow mixing while slow cooling. Too much shear at too steep a thermocline and you end up with soup.

    I was under the impression…the lamellar emulsion could take some shear while it was very hot (just combined), but then to remove shear after a minute or two….and stir down to room temp, with no enhanced cooling?  Would you agree?  @chemicalmatt

  • Graillotion

    Member
    April 13, 2022 at 9:49 am

  • grapefruit22

    Member
    April 15, 2022 at 10:50 am
  • ketchito

    Member
    April 15, 2022 at 1:03 pm

    Just some lecture from Dr. Ricardo Diez, that might change the way you look at lamellar gel networks :) :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYFDRkRclK0

  • Abdullah

    Member
    April 16, 2022 at 3:11 am

    ketchito said:

    Just some lecture from Dr. Ricardo Diez, that might change the way you look at lamellar gel networks :) :

    Thank for video

  • Abdullah

    Member
    April 16, 2022 at 3:12 am

    I have SSL and SPDMA as high hlb surfactants

  • Abdullah

    Member
    June 16, 2022 at 3:25 pm

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah Most structured cosmetic emulsions now have a lamellar gel network. Unfortunately (because not everyone has access to the equipment) the only way to really know if you got one is through x-ray diffraction. 

    @ketchito by equipments, do you mean equipments to make LGN or equipments to check if it is made?
    If you mean equipments to make LGN, what are those equipments? 

  • Abdullah

    Member
    June 16, 2022 at 3:44 pm

    @chemicalmatt just to know, the molar ratio for high/low HLB surfactant should be between 1:1-1:6 to make LGN. How do you count the molecular weight of GMS when glyceryl mono stearate is 40% or 90% in GMS product? 

    For example

    GMS is 358.563 g/mol
    GDS is 625.02 g/mol
    GMS that we use is not 100% GMS. It has glyceryl distearate too.
    If you use 1% GMS product that has 40% GMS in it, will you consider molecular weight of this 1% GMS for LGN
    As 358.563 g/mol
    As 500.512 g/mol which is sum of 40% mono & 60% di stearate
    Or as 143.4252 g/mol which you count only 40% mono part and don’t count distearate at all?

  • Paprik

    Member
    June 17, 2022 at 3:50 am

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah Most structured cosmetic emulsions now have a lamellar gel network. Unfortunately (because not everyone has access to the equipment) the only way to really know if you got one is through x-ray diffraction. 

    @ketchito, what would be the equipment? :) Is it homogeniser and some low shear overhead mixer? 

  • ketchito

    Member
    June 17, 2022 at 12:58 pm

    Paprik said:

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah Most structured cosmetic emulsions now have a lamellar gel network. Unfortunately (because not everyone has access to the equipment) the only way to really know if you got one is through x-ray diffraction. 

    @ketchito, what would be the equipment? :) Is it homogeniser and some low shear overhead mixer? 

    For properly checking if you actually made a LGN, you’d need to analyze it with an X-ray diffractometer (there might be other indirect ways, but this is the gold standard, at least for academics) :)

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