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Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Mild shampoo

  • Mild shampoo

    Posted by Anna_Maria on June 20, 2022 at 6:06 am

    Hello!
    I’m making a shampoo based on SLES and Cocamidopropyl Betaine. Looking to make it milder. Is adding a third surfactant such as coco glucoside beneficial?
    Thank you!

    oLDYcRAT replied 11 months, 1 week ago 8 Members · 18 Replies
  • 18 Replies
  • Paprik

    Member
    June 20, 2022 at 7:22 am

    Coco Glucoside, as non-ionic, does add to the mildness of the product. You could also try some cationic gum (guar hydropropyltrimonium Chloride), Polyquats (Polyquaternium-7) or superfatting agent (PEG-30 Glyceryl Cocoate). 

  • drjayseesunish

    Member
    June 20, 2022 at 8:06 am

    Paprik said:

    Coco Glucoside, as non-ionic, does add to the mildness of the product. You could also try some cationic gum (guar hydropropyltrimonium Chloride), Polyquats (Polyquaternium-7) or superfatting agent (PEG-30 Glyceryl Cocoate). 

    @Paprik I want to know as he asked for mildness, then why need to add 3rd surfactant as 2 sufficient to provide the gentle cleaning. Now you told adding these so how can cationic gum provide the mildness, as it is used as viscosity builder. I don’t know much about these, just acquiring knowledge, if possible please describe it.

  • ketchito

    Member
    June 20, 2022 at 1:51 pm

    @drjayseesunish Just to contribute on the topic, cationic polymers make anionic cleansers milder by reducing the amount of single anionics, promoting micelle formation. This can also be done by CAPB, so increasing the level of CAPB and reducing the anionic can also work.

  • drjayseesunish

    Member
    June 20, 2022 at 2:53 pm

    ketchito said:

    @drjayseesunish Just to contribute on the topic, cationic polymers make anionic cleansers milder by reducing the amount of single anionics, promoting micelle formation. This can also be done by CAPB, so increasing the level of CAPB and reducing the anionic can also work.

    @ketchito your explanation helped me a better understanding. Thank you😊

  • Abdullah

    Entrepreneur
    June 20, 2022 at 3:23 pm

    ketchito said:

    @drjayseesunish Just to contribute on the topic, cationic polymers make anionic cleansers milder by reducing the amount of single anionics, promoting micelle formation. This can also be done by CAPB, so increasing the level of CAPB and reducing the anionic can also work.

    Does other polymers like xanthan gum also have any effect on mildness or single anionics?

  • ketchito

    Member
    June 21, 2022 at 12:00 pm

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

  • drjayseesunish

    Member
    June 21, 2022 at 1:23 pm

    ketchito said:

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

    @ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry 😊

  • zetein

    Member
    June 21, 2022 at 1:36 pm
    Does hydrophobic attraction works similarly? I remembered Johnson&johnson did something like this.

    But in their ingredient lists its just called “acrylates copolymer”, not even “hydrophobically modified” like using fatty alcohol ethoxylates as side chains.

  • ketchito

    Member
    June 22, 2022 at 4:18 am

    ketchito said:

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

    @ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry 😊

    Fordrjayseesunish said:

    ketchito said:

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

    @ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry 😊

     For a dishwasher it’s not worthy to add rheology modifiers because of budget. But in water based cosmetics, you would need them. You couls thicken some surfactant bases products using just NaCl (growing micelles), but some systems are salt sensitive or you want to use the salt free claim. Xanthan gume comes in handy in these products, but the sensorial is not too appealing, and it doesn’t let you suspend some particles or oils. Carbomers are excellent at suspending stuff (due to the net of polymeric chains it has), but depending on your formula, it could be sensitive to salt (if you’re using it as well).

  • ketchito

    Member
    June 22, 2022 at 4:27 am

    zetein said:

    Does hydrophobic attraction works similarly? I remembered Johnson&johnson did something like this.

    But in their ingredient lists its just called “acrylates copolymer”, not even “hydrophobically modified” like using fatty alcohol ethoxylates as side chains.

    I believe it should say something like C10-30 alkyl acrylate crosspolymer, and the principleis more or less the same, but since the interaction os not head-to-head but rather tail-to-tail, the orientation of the micelle would be differente. Nevertheless, the way it improves mildness is through the same mechanism.

  • Annyeap

    Member
    June 22, 2022 at 4:38 am

    ketchito said:

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

    Does this mean that if i want to have more micelles in the shampoo, i need to make sure i have some cationic polymers so it can promote more micelles? Also, how do cationics promote micelle formation?

  • drjayseesunish

    Member
    June 22, 2022 at 8:47 am

    ketchito said:

    ketchito said:

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

    @ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry 😊

    Fordrjayseesunish said:

    ketchito said:

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

    @ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry 😊

     For a dishwasher it’s not worthy to add rheology modifiers because of budget. But in water based cosmetics, you would need them. You couls thicken some surfactant bases products using just NaCl (growing micelles), but some systems are salt sensitive or you want to use the salt free claim. Xanthan gume comes in handy in these products, but the sensorial is not too appealing, and it doesn’t let you suspend some particles or oils. Carbomers are excellent at suspending stuff (due to the net of polymeric chains it has), but depending on your formula, it could be sensitive to salt (if you’re using it as well).

    @ketchito ok got it. Some queries,1. if carbomer excellent emulsifier then can  we use in place  of bee wax in making lotion/cream  or we need to add different kind of emulsifier for getting our results.
    2. I have seen someone  is making gel by using cationic guar gum in aqueous extract of aloe,( I believed carbomer only ) that made me to think, polymer can be used make gel but thing is what is difference between different gel? Is all no difference or their use depand on the quality or types of products as cleaning/ cosmetics/ medicinal etc.

  • zetein

    Member
    June 23, 2022 at 1:32 am
    @ketchito Thanks. In my region neutrogena gives “three-dimensional micelle cleansing tech” claim but its footnote tells “which means the surfactants work with ‘acrylates copolymer’ forming a three-dimensional network structure”.
    Could probably be the polyethylene backbone and the lower aclohol residues are already hydrophobic enough to attract surfactant molecular. I guess.
  • ketchito

    Member
    June 23, 2022 at 11:52 am

    Annyeap said:

    ketchito said:

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

    Does this mean that if i want to have more micelles in the shampoo, i need to make sure i have some cationic polymers so it can promote more micelles? Also, how do cationics promote micelle formation?

    Yes, and also other type of molecules help on that (lile amphoteric surfactants). Cationic polymers promote micelle formation through their positive sites, which are like meeting points, where free anionic surfactant molecules get together (through their head groups) till they start interacting with each other and forming micelles.

  • ketchito

    Member
    June 23, 2022 at 11:58 am

    ketchito said:

    ketchito said:

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

    @ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry 😊

    Fordrjayseesunish said:

    ketchito said:

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

    @ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry 😊

     For a dishwasher it’s not worthy to add rheology modifiers because of budget. But in water based cosmetics, you would need them. You couls thicken some surfactant bases products using just NaCl (growing micelles), but some systems are salt sensitive or you want to use the salt free claim. Xanthan gume comes in handy in these products, but the sensorial is not too appealing, and it doesn’t let you suspend some particles or oils. Carbomers are excellent at suspending stuff (due to the net of polymeric chains it has), but depending on your formula, it could be sensitive to salt (if you’re using it as well).

    @ketchito ok got it. Some queries,1. if carbomer excellent emulsifier then can  we use in place  of bee wax in making lotion/cream  or we need to add different kind of emulsifier for getting our results.
    2. I have seen someone  is making gel by using cationic guar gum in aqueous extract of aloe,( I believed carbomer only ) that made me to think, polymer can be used make gel but thing is what is difference between different gel? Is all no difference or their use depand on the quality or types of products as cleaning/ cosmetics/ medicinal etc.

    1. In emulsions, you need to thicken both the water phase and the oil phase; in your case, the carbomer would thicken the water phase while the beeswax will thicken the oil phase. The advantage of a hydrophobically modified acrylic polymer over a regular carbomer, is that while the backbone resides and thickens the water phase, the hydrophobic side chain interacts with the oil phase, giving extra stabilization. 

    2. You could make a gel with cationic guar, but it wouldn’t be so pleasant, plus you’ll have too much cationic guar depositing on your skin, and it’s preferably not having too many charged molecules there.

  • ketchito

    Member
    June 23, 2022 at 12:01 pm

    zetein said:

    @ketchito Thanks. In my region neutrogena gives “three-dimensional micelle cleansing tech” claim but its footnote tells “which means the surfactants work with ‘acrylates copolymer’ forming a three-dimensional network structure”.
    Could probably be the polyethylene backbone and the lower aclohol residues are already hydrophobic enough to attract surfactant molecular. I guess.

    Yes. Non charged polymers can also increase micelle formation, especially if they are hydrophobically modified. The initial interaction in this case would be tail-to-tail.

  • drjayseesunish

    Member
    June 23, 2022 at 1:31 pm

    ketchito said:

    ketchito said:

    ketchito said:

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

    @ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry 😊

    Fordrjayseesunish said:

    ketchito said:

    It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better πŸ˜†

    @ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry 😊

     For a dishwasher it’s not worthy to add rheology modifiers because of budget. But in water based cosmetics, you would need them. You couls thicken some surfactant bases products using just NaCl (growing micelles), but some systems are salt sensitive or you want to use the salt free claim. Xanthan gume comes in handy in these products, but the sensorial is not too appealing, and it doesn’t let you suspend some particles or oils. Carbomers are excellent at suspending stuff (due to the net of polymeric chains it has), but depending on your formula, it could be sensitive to salt (if you’re using it as well).

    @ketchito ok got it. Some queries,1. if carbomer excellent emulsifier then can  we use in place  of bee wax in making lotion/cream  or we need to add different kind of emulsifier for getting our results.
    2. I have seen someone  is making gel by using cationic guar gum in aqueous extract of aloe,( I believed carbomer only ) that made me to think, polymer can be used make gel but thing is what is difference between different gel? Is all no difference or their use depand on the quality or types of products as cleaning/ cosmetics/ medicinal etc.

    1. In emulsions, you need to thicken both the water phase and the oil phase; in your case, the carbomer would thicken the water phase while the beeswax will thicken the oil phase. The advantage of a hydrophobically modified acrylic polymer over a regular carbomer, is that while the backbone resides and thickens the water phase, the hydrophobic side chain interacts with the oil phase, giving extra stabilization. 

    2. You could make a gel with cationic guar, but it wouldn’t be so pleasant, plus you’ll have too much cationic guar depositing on your skin, and it’s preferably not having too many charged molecules there.

    @ketchito thanks a lot. I am very grateful to you as sometimes questions unanswered but you always give your precious time to answer these questions. 

  • oLDYcRAT

    Member
    June 30, 2022 at 1:33 pm

    As a non-chemistry guy, I’m really shocked by how a man can produce shampoo at home. I wonder if it’s actually profitable? Does it cost the time and the money you’ve spent on it? I’ve read a lot about shampoos on BΓ€st i test because my hair is actually really sensitive. And I know a bit about the components every shampoo includes, but I really can’t understand how it is still possible for you to find them? Do you buy the components on the Internet? I’m really excited about discovering it. Waiting for the reply!