[ketchito]

Some surfactants swell the cortex a bit more, letting dyes leach easier. Mixtures of surfactants (adding amphoterics) can reduce this phenomena.

[ketchito]

@abhiromeo Since you’re using deposition aids, yoi can try with emulsions of uncharged silicone (like Dimethinocol (and) TEA dodecylbenzenesulfonate).

[ketchito]

@abhiromeo Why do you think that shampoo is making your hair dry? I think it depends on your expectations. If yoy compare that formula to a silicone-based shampoo, of course you won’t fwel your hair too conditioned. What you lack is good emollients (PEG-7 glyceryl cocoate doesn’t rival the performance of common silicones).

[ketchito]

@bahey Natural oils tend to leave a heavy (oily and sticky) residue, but if it works for you, that’s fine. Don’t forget to use an antioxidant.

[ketchito]

@pma You need so search for deodorized waxes. 

About the humectancy, it’s very hard to work around the mineral oil + petrolatum combo that Shiseido is using. The closest could be using some occlusive silicone waxes, but I don’t think you want to use any of thos due to your client’s requirements. You could use some lanolin plus some esters…and squalene that is already in the formula.

[ketchito]

bahey said:

This is hydrogenated castor oil plus paraffin oil 1:1

@bahey You cannot solubilize Paraffin oil using PEG-40 HCO. As @ozgirl mentioned, if you want to make an emulsion, use traditional systems (like PEG-100 stearate/Glyceryl stearate plus fatty alcohols). If you want to solubilize it, Isopar H is a good choice.

[ketchito]

@bahey Did you check the list of ingredients? If you want more bubbles, I’d add some amine oxide, and alternatively increase the amount of Betaine.

[ketchito]

@hawraa That is too much glycerin, it can impair foam. Not sure about the stability of the formula using so much xanthan gum. How much fragrance are you using? At regular fragrance levels (0.5-0.7%), surfactants shouldn’t interfere with the smell.

[ketchito]

@bahey You can either make a normal emulsion (using regular emulsifiers), or solubilize the oil using something like Isoparaffin (eg., Isopar H from Exxon).

[ketchito]

Abdullah said:

This is a lotion formula for dry skin.
10 People who have used it like it very much and couldn’t tell any difference in mildness or irritation on skin with same formula preserved with 0.5% phenoxyethanol+ 0.15% caprylhydroxamic acid instead of formalin. Changing preservative system to 0.1% formalin is a big cost saving for me. 
My question is about preservation spectrum of formalin at this pH. 

Do i need an anti fungal preservative with 0.1% formalin in this cationic emulsion at pH 4.5 or not?

Formula
Glycerin 12% 
Petrolatum 4% 
Behentrimonium chloride 0.5% active 
GMS 2% 
Cetearyl alcohol 1% 
Lactic acid 0.4% active 
Fragrance 0.05% 
Formalin 0.1%(370ppm formaldehyde)
Water 
pH 4.5 

@Abdullah At that pH and having an organic acid, you might be OK, but maybe someone with more experience could give more perspective.

Just out of curiosity, did you chek the stability of your formula under accelerated stability conditions?

[ketchito]

Abdullah said:

ketchito said:

@Abdullah For a fair compariso, you should have made both total anionic and Betaine content similar. I’d go for the ond with more Betaine.

Total surfactant is both 12%. The one with more betaine also has better foam but as it has ammonium lauryl sulfate, i thought it may be less gentle than formula B. .

@Abdullah I meant, keep the level of Betaine fixed, as well as the total anionic content. 

[ketchito]

Also, researchers in the study couldn’t identify which ingredient(s) could be responsible for this finding, which they mention is a weakness in this study (they argue that parabens and formaldehyde are present in these products, but disregarding parabens, formaldehyde has long been replaced for other chemicals). The study is definitely sounding, but more studies are needed to clarify.

[ketchito]

@JaneY Is the formula you posted, for a powder detergent? I’m a bit confused. I’ll asume that, since there’s no water in that formula. But then the amount of those ingredients don’t make much sense. Also, are you making the batch at home? I’d find it very hard to imagine that without proper equipment. Are phosphates still allowed in your country? Please give us more info so we can assist you better.

[ketchito]

mariamu96 said:

@ketchito I am interested in gently opening the cuticles so that t low porosity hair, 4c afro hair absorbes better the moisture. Then the hydrating mist is followed with a cream with a balanced pH and oil. My goal is that my mist has a pH between 5 or 6 if possible. 

@mariamu96 No need to “open” cuticles here. Hair moisture is self regulated. What you could do to help hair keep its moisture (specially in warm environments) is to use film forming agents, and cationic surfactants (or esters) that bind cutticle edges. Also, small organic acids (maleic, for instance), can actually get into the cortex and help retain moisture.

[ketchito]

Same thing happened here in Peru, where Clorox recalled many contaminated Poett bottles. My guess was that probably a film forming bacteria in manufacturing pipes caused the issue. The worse thing is that this happened during the initial months of the pandemic. Now, whay I told my peers is that Clorox spotted it because they are always testing, but that many more brands in the market probably had the same issue, buy they don’t test as much (or at all).

[ketchito]

@bahey Dow Corning (now just Dow) has a formulary of many car products, you should check it. Now, keep in mind that both type of formulas are quite dirrefent and will probable cost quite differently as well. Also, paraffi oil might leave surface shinnier but more greasy.

[ketchito]

@Abdullah For a fair compariso, you should have made both total anionic and Betaine content similar. I’d go for the ond with more Betaine.

[ketchito]

As @Paprik mentioned, there are so many things to take into account when formulating a sunscreen, even experienced formulators could miss some things, so I would advice to to experiment with a different cosmetic, and you can leave sunscreens for when you finish your program.

[ketchito]

@mariamu96 If the maximum pH you want to reach is 5.5, that’s not so bad, although getting a bit closer to 5 would be better. Cosgard 221 has Dehydroacetic acid and even though it has a higher pKa than Benzoic acid, it still needs an acid media to perform. If you switch to Phenoxy/EHG, you still benefit from using EDTA (it works differently than your preservarives). 

Now, why do you want to open cuticles? That’s the least you want to do (unless you’re in the middle of colouring process and you require dyes to penetrate). For both virgin and chemically treated hair, cuticles lifting makes hair more prone to friction, static, descaling, light scattering (dullness), color fade (in case of coloured hair), swelling, etc.

[ketchito]

@Abdullah If you’re refering to ref 6 of the Annex III, that one is for sodium and potassium chlorate which are different than sodium and potassium chloride. There is no restriction for the level of sodium chloride in a cosmetic formula (except for the chemical ones).

[ketchito]

mix5 said:

ketchito said:

@mix5 Sepigel 305 is a great Robin (Chris O’Donnel), a good Sancho (Panza), a nice Melania (yikes!)….but let the heroes (Michael Keaton/Christian Bale) save the city and kiss the girl (Kim Bassinger, all the time). That means, use a monomeric emulsifier(s) at regular amount, and add Sepigel 305 at low amount (if needed, to boost stability and thickness).

@ketchito, what monomeric emulsifiers would you (kindly) suggest I try?  Thanks Much.  PS.  Loved the cinema/literature references 🙂

@mix5 You could try with the universal PEG-100 stearate/Glyceryl stearate as a main emulsifier….and add a bit of Sepigel 305 at the end of the process, to increase both viscosity and stability.  

[ketchito]

@MariaSibon Annex V is for approved preservarives. Since you are using those cationics as condirioning agents, you should use Annex III (ref 286).

[ketchito]

@Abdullah 10 people seems like a small number to draw conclusions, especially if part of the group liked formula A, and the other part liked formula B. You could even find this happening if you ask them to evaluate the same formula but with different codes. Are they trained panelists? (trained panelists are constantly trained, evaluated and even “calibrated”).

Some shampoo bars use Stearic acid which can actually deposit on hair in small amounts (I’ve seen that even with fabric softeners), so theoretically it could happen that your stearate is occupying a place where Amodimethicone was supposed to take. Nevertheless, in shampoos, EGMS is already in solid form (flat sheets of EGMS suspended in the product when used as a pearlizer), which reduced it’s chances of deposition.

[ketchito]

I believe EDTA is used in cationic formulas for other reasons, like boosting antimicrobial properties (I recall some eye drops that used a mixture of EDTA and Benzalkonium chloride for improved antimicrobial efficacy) and to remove metal ions that could favor unwanted reactions (like fragrance oxidation). Also, some chelants are deposited on hair fibers to prevent dye color change (dyes can be affected by the presence of metal ions).

[ketchito]

drjayseesunish said:

drjayseesunish said:ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

PhilGeis said:

Don’t see a preservative

@PhilGeis sorry..forget to mention 
Phenoxyethanol is preservative used here.

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish That’s a high amount of LABSA. I never got further than 8% without switching neutralizers (from NaOH to TEA) or adding a hydrotrope (like SXS). You could either reduce the amount of LABSA, switch to TEA (as neutralizer) or add something lime Sodium xylene sulfonate. 

@ketchito thanks a lot ketchito.
Here I want to understand if we switch to TEA for neutralize labsa but how can we get the properties of NAOH if using TEA.
Can we use a combination of NAOH and TEA?
Does propylene glycol produce same effect as of SXS? Please reply. 

@drjayseesunish When you neutralize with TEA, the resulting surfactant is more water soluble and also more degreasing than if you neutralize with NaOH. You could neutralize with both, but I’d recommend to firt use only TEA to see if your issue was resolved. Unfortunately, PPG is not as powerful as SXS, and it can also deprive your foam if used at high levels. I also see a high % of an alcohol ethoxylate. May I assume you’re formulating a concentrated liquid detergent (to be diluted)? Liquid enzymes would have been a good addition (but then you’d need to add stabilizers and redice the pH).