[Ifa]

Curious to know this as well. Can someone help?

[Ifa]

@Sibech I would like to know your reasons for hating the term “comedogenic”, if you please will!

[Ifa]

ngarayeva001 said:

Hi, I suggest that you keep it like in L’Oreal’s patent (which is ok as long as you are not selling it)
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7179841B2/en

It translates into this:

INCI	%
Aqua	34.00%
Ethoxydiglycol	30.00%
Propylene glycol	10.00%
Glycerin	5.00%
Ferulic Acid	0.50%
LAA	15.00%
Tocopherol	1.00%
Ceteareth-20	4.00%
Hyaluronic acid HMW	0.20%
TEA	qs

It still oxidizes with time, but slower than other options. You don’t need a preservative with this one.

What is the purpose of ceteareth-20 here?

[Ifa]

jemolian said:

Could you please elaborate on it, please? Which ingredients would not be in ‘effective range’, and effective in what terms? I am planning to keep the pH of the solution near to 3 (after L-ascorbic acid is added, that is).

What would be out of the pH range would be determined by the pH of your premade solution, which you have to make first. It’s not something that i can really give you an answer to. For example, your premade solution make require it to by pH 8 before adding the LAA, which the preservatives would no longer be effective if you intend to store it. 

How about I use a mixture of DMDM (0.5%) and methylparaben (0.2%) and add 0.2% disodium EDTA? 

[Ifa]

jemolian said:

Could you please elaborate on it, please? Which ingredients would not be in ‘effective range’, and effective in what terms? I am planning to keep the pH of the solution near to 3 (after L-ascorbic acid is added, that is).

What would be out of the pH range would be determined by the pH of your premade solution, which you have to make first. It’s not something that i can really give you an answer to. For example, your premade solution make require it to by pH 8 before adding the LAA, which the preservatives would no longer be effective if you intend to store it. 

Makes sense - thank you!

[Ifa]

Dr Catherine Pratt said:

Why dont you use MAP or SAP vitamin C?, DSM (Brennetag) make a great stable Vitamin C called Stay-C 50. You can get that from small suppliers.

Why not use a gelling agent like Seppimax ? or Leci gel? you only need a small amount along with the Hyal acid. You will want to think about whether you want various MW of Hyal acid too. As different MW’s gel better than others!!

The preservatives are fine but I would use more of each.

If you don’t use a gelling agent as I have suggested you may want a cold process emulsifier like Eumulgin 1%.

Work on that and let me know how you go!!! Good luck cheers Catherine

Thank you for your response!

I want to avoid vitamin C derivates and stick to the ‘pure’ form of vitamin C.

Gelling is not an issue for me. Would that affect the efficacy of the product?

I will push sodium benzoate to 1% and keep potassium sorbate at 0.2% (since that is its upper limit). Works?

[Ifa]

jemolian said:

Potentially it’s possible to make a pre-made solution then add the LAA later, but you’d need to make sure that the 15% LAA added would reach the pH range that you want. You will need to try out different percentages of TEA at different pH range. This would be the logical way to do it. 

A few things: one of them being that the Tocopherol might not be fully solubilized with the Polysorbate for stability, which is something you need to observe. Another being that the ingredients would very likely not be in effective range in the pre-made solution, especially the preservatives. One more thing, i’d assume that the sodium lactate be mildly exfoliating at the pH 3+ range. 

Thank you for sharing your insights!

I didn’t quite get the following statement of yours, though.

Another being that the ingredients would very likely not be in effective range in the pre-made solution, especially the preservatives. 

Could you please elaborate on it, please? Which ingredients would not be in ‘effective range’, and effective in what terms? I am planning to keep the pH of the solution near to 3 (after L-ascorbic acid is added, that is).

[Ifa]

@Perry @Pharma @MarBroussard @PhilGeis @ngarayeva001 @Microformulation @EVchem @”Dr Catherine Pratt” @Paprik @abierose @Graillotion @RedCoast @jemolian @ozgirl

Could any of you help here, please? 

(Sorry for too many tags! Please ignore if not interested.)

[Ifa]

Pharma said:

Nature only produces the L-enantiomer of ascorbic acid and most industrial processes also produce exclusively the L-form (starting from glucose and using fermentation). On the other hand, certain synthetic pathways may lead to either enantiopure products or a racemic mixtures but these are speciality syntheses which aren’t readily available to everyone or result from the original disused synthetic route, respectively.

Both enantiomers act as antioxidants equally well whilst enzymes depending on it as co-factor can only use the L-form.

There’s maybe a 99.99% chance that whenever you read or buy ascorbic acid it will be L-ascorbic acid and whenever vitamin C is mentioned, it always refers to the L- form.

Herbnerd said:

There is no difference between Ascorbic Acid and L-Ascorbic acid.

This molecule exists in two enantiomers. The L-from is Ascorbic acid; the D-form is called erythorbic acid. 

Would this work in place of L-ascorbic acid in my vitamin C formula?

[Ifa]

Perry said:

That depends on what characteristic you are talking about.

From an element standpoint, they have the identical chemical formula

From a structural standpoint, Ascorbic acid is a blend of l-ascorbic acid and d-ascorbic acid. (isomers).  On a molecular level these compounds are mirror structures like you left hand and right hand.

From a functional standpoint, reportedly only the l-ascorbic acid isomer is biologically functional.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3673383/

Thank you for your response!

[Ifa]

Perry said:

You have to understand, the purpose of a body wash is to remove things from your skin. Putting oils in a body wash simply makes your body wash clean less effectively. 

If you want oils on your body, you should add them using a moisturizer after you use a body wash. Body washes shouldn’t be used for delivering ingredients to skin. It’s for taking things off.

What other classes of ingredients may interfere with the cleansing ability of a surfactant?

What would you suggest the core ingredients for an effective cleansing product be?

[Ifa]

jemolian said:

If based on basic information on paper: 
Besides from Urea normally being a solid and Hydroxyethyl Urea in liquid form, both can have their challenges since they can cause a drift in pH. This would be stated in the Hydrovance (Hydroxyethyl Urea) product brochure or TDS. That would probably be the main challenge if at all. 

If based on experience and observation:
Urea exfoliates me. For Hydroxyethyl Urea, based on the toner i made for my aunt, she hasn’t feedback anything regarding the issue for exfoliation. I haven’t tried it on myself at the moment. 

Thank you for your response! What % have you been using them at? 

[Ifa]

Anca_Formulator said:

Thickeners and stabilizers such as gums and fatty alcohols. Use the right amount of shear recommended for the specific emulsifier you are using. If there are any elctrolytes (aloe vera, sodium lactate, sodium PCA) in your formula, make sure the emulsifier can handle them. Similarly, make sure the ingredients are compatibel with each other. For example, don’t use anionic gums for cationic emulsions etc 

What marks a substance as an electrolyte?

[Ifa]

Perry said:

Carbomer - best texture, most versatile
Xanthan - seen as more natural

But as @”DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ” said, both work for specific systems.

Would hyaluronic acid work as a stabiliser at 0.2% in an emulsion? 

[Ifa]

Microformulation said:

Likely you are not getting an answer since these are fairly broad topics AND they are really Fundamentals you should be educating yourself on, For example, in this case;

• Tocopherol is not water soluble (although there are some forms altered to be so, but rarely used due to issues with PEG’s. Solubulization is a huge topic which you will gain a great deal of benefit from studying formally. For example, the Gold standard is polysorbates. Does this meet your raw material standard? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNbgHvi_lqM)
• There are numerous discussions regarding Ferulic acid. When you read these, you will likely learn of the L’Oreal patent for using Ferulic acid to stabilize L-Ascorbic acid.

Again, I am just suggesting that you delve deeper into these topics and read all you can. We could just give spot-on answers, but here I fall into the “give a man a fish…” outlook.

Thank you for your response!

[Ifa]

jemolian said:

@Graillotion i bought mine from china as per usual, but then in terms of skin feel wise, Isononyl Isononoate’s profile is very fast spreading, silky and relatively fast absorbing even up to 20%.

You can see some of the info on performance here -> 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mpv0hbaaq91etct/DOC%20FICHE%20DUB%20ININ.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nc5xfxi2dwpx22e/Lanol%2099.pdf?dl=0

I can’t compare too much since i normally use esters that are not sold in the US, such as Cetyl Ethylhexanoate or Triethylhexanoin, but they are all relatively very light esters, so in terms of performance wise, they are quite close. If the ones you have are light esters or lighter than Capric / Caprylic Triglyceride, i think they would be quite similar. 

I’ve been testing with some of the thicker, more emollient esters like Di-PPG-3 Myristyl Ether Adipate, Pentaerythrityl Tetraisostearate, Diisostearyl Malate. 

Just bought some Hydrogenated Polyisobutene, so hope to test it when it arrives. 

What do you think of Capric / Caprylic Triglyceride? How do you think it would work at 20% in a O/W emulsion?

[Ifa]

jemolian said:

Depending on what you are trying to formulate and what kind of reference product you are using for reference, the barebones or essential ingredients can vary, for example, a standard cream formulation would minimally contain:

• Water
• Emulsifier
• Lipid
• Humectant (Some medical active creams may contain propylene glycol instead of glycerin)
• Preservative

The rest of the ingredients, you can use them for added extras. Though to answer your questions in general, I’d recommend to patch test them separately to see if they actually do anything for your skin before deciding to add them to your formulation. For example, normally if i’m trying out if an ingredient works or not, i’d be applying my usual moisturizer, plus that ingredient formulated separately in a different form, such as a gel. This way i can see if they do anything for my skin at specific percentages over a few applications.  

What lipid/s would you suggest to take the place of an oil phase of about 20%? Other than plant/mineral oil and butters. 

[Ifa]

Hi, can someone please help?

[Ifa]

DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ said:

We have used DMDMH alone in a myriad of systems ie creams lotions gels etc  with products having micro-integrity for 3+ years via OTC/USP preservation testing. Unnecessary Overloading of a preservation system can lead to skin problems such as contact dermatitis and so on.Preservative as rule of thumb should be < 1.0% wt/wt.

At what percentage have you used DMDMH?

And generally, for what sort of products?

[Ifa]

RedCoast said:

Xanthan gum has better consumer perception, particularly in the “natural” and Ecocert markets BUT if you’re just starting out with formulating, it can be tricky to use.

The soft grade is easier to use. You can find it on several repackers online, but unfortunately, it is pricey compared to carbomer.

I thought carbomer was tougher to work with since it requires neutralisation and is incompatible with many ingredients? 

As a side question, how can we know which ingredients carbomer is incompatible with? What is ‘incompatibility’ referring to in this context? 

[Ifa]

RedCoast said:

Most “prebiotic” and “probiotic” ingredients (particularly ferments and filtrates) are also bug food.

Emulsifiers like Montanov 68 (Cetearyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Glucoside) make great bug food, too. Any alkylpolyglucoside emulsifier, really. You’d be surprised how quickly mold attacks it!

That’s new. Thanks for sharing. What stable W/O and O/W emulsifiers would you recommend? 

[Ifa]

Perry said:

Additionally, surfactants, emollients, amino acids, sugars.  Different microbes eat a lot of different things.

To minimize the problems, use less. Keep pH out of growth range. Reduce water activity. Use closed packaging. Use chelating agents. And use standard, proven effective preservatives. 

That is helpful advice. Thank you. 

[Ifa]

ngarayeva001 said:

what do you want it to do?

How can I incorporate zinc oxide in my W/O emulsion?

In the heated water/oil phase or cool down phase? 

Or must it be pre-mixed in a medium like PG/glycerine? 

[Ifa]

ngarayeva001 said:

Aloe, lecithin, plant extracts, clays and clay derived ingredients, proteins and anything that can be described as food (milk, honey, fruit purees, fruit juices). I am sure there is more.

Thank you for your response. 

Could you answer the second part of my question? 

[Ifa]

Pharma said:

EHG is said to be active above 0.1% as booster for example for phenoxyethanol. Alone, you’d have to use it well above 1%. Meaning, EHG in a blend like Euxyl 9010 will be limit if sticking to the EU regulation which @PhilGeis mentioned. Given that it’s not too problematic even at 5% or higher (contact allergies are infrequent but we will, most likely, see more in the future due to increasing usage of EHG) and it also acts as emollient and humectant, inclusion at more that just 0.1% seems reasonable. Compared to other, similar compounds, I’d aim at 0.3-0.5% or even more but be careful because higher levels might in some cases interfere with emulsion stability and/or viscosity.

If I were to
combine DMDM hydantoin and methyl paraben, would it make for a good,
broad-spectrum preservative? What percentage can I use the two at? Would I need
any additional preserving compounds?