Gunther
Forum Replies Created
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Thanks guys.
So the 0.1% limit applies only to rinse-off products?
Any updates if it got restricted in leave-on products too?
They were supposed to file a dossier by April 2018Furthermore, the European commission has requested The European Chemical Agency (ECHA) to prepare a new dossier regarding restriction of D4/D5 in leave-on consumer product. The scope of this restriction will include products containing D4/D5 concentration of more than 0.1%. It is expected that ECHA will publish the final dossier in April 2018.
https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/7724/pcc-cyclosiloxane-d4-d5-regulation-update/ -
Great
@markj187 do you happen to have a link for the Kao addition order?
While I found this Kao SLES+CAPB+behentrimonium recipe, it doesn’t mention any specific order
http://www.kaochemicals-eu.com/sites/default/files/related_files/business_unit/2014-02-01_kao_sofcare_eng.pdfThis Kao patent claims anionic (SLES) + amphoteric (CAPB) +behentrimonium helps preserve dyed hair color, but still doesn’t mention any addition order
Example 1% by weightSodium lauryl ether sulphate 10.6Cocamidopropyl betaine 3.0Sodium lauroyl glutamate 2.5Decyl glucoside 2.0Cetrimonium chloride 0.7Polyqauternium-10 0.5PEG-90 glyceryl isostearate 3.0Citric acid/sodium hydroxide q.s. to pH 5.5Preservative, fragrance q.sWater to 100The above shampoo was judged to have rich and creamy foam in a monadic test by the volunteers. It was furthermore mentioned that it foams very quickly.Additionally, the hair washed was excellently combable, had good shine, volume and body.The above cleansing composition was tested against a composition not comprising cetrimonium chlrode chloride for its colour wash out effect. It was observed that the composition of Example 1 washed out much less colour that the composition not comprising the amino acid and cationic surfactant. It should be noted that the amino acid and cationic surfactants were replaced by anionic and non-ionic surfactants, respectively.The colour was out test was carried out at 40 °C using coloured hair tresses dipped into 5% solution of cleansing composition which were shaken at a speed of 50 pm. At predetermined times the tresses were taken out and after drying the colour was measured suing laboratory equipment and colour differences were calculated with well known method in the art. Similar results were observed with the compositions below.
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2013098210A1/en -
What’s the formulation for?
A pre-ironing leave-in conditioner, or sealer?Be careful with its formulation.
Youtube is full of horror videos of iron flats causing hair to catch fire. ‘Halt and catch fire’ may turn to ‘Iron flat and catch fire’While flammable-solvent containing hairsprays are the most common culprit, many other substances can light a fire, at the typical ironing flat temperatures.
i.e. paraffins are highly flammable:
http://www.holmberg.se/upload/product/files/sds-n-paraffin-c10-c13-eng-2014-02-19—619.pdfSo it makes sense to mainly use:
1. (Non flammable) water, altough some customers dislike excess water vapor when ironing. Some say water worsens ironing damage
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9025/63aadc5c781bf5431b76c0d1d02b53f831b4.pdf2. Heat resistant silicones. It looks like higher molecular weight dimethicones both seem to work better for hair, and are even harder to lit up.
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/4467/do-high-molecular-weight-dimethicones-work-better-in-shampoos3. Only add really necessary ingredients. Only if they really really add something useful to the formula, like CETAC for detangling, Behentrimonium for conditioning or to emulsify silicones, etc.
4. See if ingredients really work that fast to condition hair. If not, they’ll just get dried or burnt on hair.
5. Test both the bare ingredients and the finished formulation for flammability at higher temperatures than the highest temp iron flat can achieve.
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CETAC after CAPB?
Did you wait for CETAC to “react” (actually more of a complex-formation, not an actual chemical reaction) with CAPB? How long?So the addition order was:
1. SMC taurate then CAPB, then CETAC, then Decyl Glucoside
2. SLES, then Sodium Coco Sulfate, then CAPB, then CETAC
Is that right?I’m asking because the order seems different than Cationics, then CAPB, then Glucosides, then Anionics that @chemicalmatt recommended.
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The active % doesn’t really matter as it’s going to be mostly water in the final formulation.
You’ll need 3-4% active linear sulfonic acid.
Some say you can use as low as 2.4% active
https://www.happi.com/contents/view_/2011-03-04/formulating-manual-dishwash-detergents -
Me too.
@antmagn did you use bare Behentrimonium methosulfate or was it BTMS blend? -
You’re right @Sibech that could be done
but I doubt most manufacturers actually sterilize their hydrosols.The simplest thing would be freezing them during storage, until they are shipped. Even if they lose some scents, they are kept from spoiled.
But again I doubt they do that. Hence my advise to extract your hydrosols yourself to ensure freshness. -
I don’t think Xanthan gum (or most gums) will leave a pleasant feel on the skin. That’s the most likely culprit IMO.
If you insist on using it, use it at way less than 1%, something like 0.1%.
Did you list the ingredients in descending order? How much Xanthan gum are you using?Emulsifiers are supposed to leave a decently thick cream with oils.
Likely its thickness was diluted with too much watery extracts.
So, try:
1 Making a formulation with just emulsifier + water + oils (no extracts) to see if it gets decently thick so you can take out the Xanthan gum.
2 rising oils+emulsifiers and lowering the water/extracts fraction.
3 knock-off study to see which extract is killing viscosity. -
Hmmm I don’t think hydrosols would last 12 months with no preservatives added.
Probably not even if they were sterile filtered (trough a 0.22 micrometer filter). -
Great
@Perry can we all please post some links on the chemicals concentration limits allowed by several regulatory agencies all around the world, and make this post a sticky?i.e. are these the only chemicals banned or restricted by US FDA?
https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/guidanceregulation/lawsregulations/ucm127406.htm#prohibited -
IMO SLS will work better (bigger bubbles) than SLES and it’s a bit cheaper.
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@EVchem there’s so much plain BS at chemicaloftheday.squarespace.com that it beats EWG pseudoscience.
i.e. they claim that Titanium oxide can oxidize Benzyl Alcohol to formaldehydeCan react with titanium dioxide to form aldehydes, including formaldehyde. (Source)
http://chemicaloftheday.squarespace.com/todays-chemical/2009/7/22/benzyl-alcohol.htmlYou can read the whole study they cited for free here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228679032_Photocatalytic_oxidation_of_aromatic_alcohols_to_aldehydes_in_aqueous_suspension_of_home-prepared_titanium_dioxide_1_Selectivity_enhancement_by_aliphatic
Click on the ‘Download full-text PDF’ blue box on the upper, righthand corner.‘ In this case the typical intermediates of methanol oxidation, such as formaldehyde and formic acid, were not detected in the slurries of HP0.5 catalyst and CO2 was the only product detected…’Do they even read the links they post?
I don’t think they do. They just type out of their … imagination.
lol @ Benzyl alcohol as a formaldehyde releaser. -
Just hydrosols in general
technically speaking hydrosol is just a fancy term for ‘dissolved in water’.
Even tea, which you can make at home, is technically an hydrosol.
Of course getting tea leaves is way easier and cheaper than getting fresh flowers.
I’ve always wondered how do they manage to get hydrosols fresh trough mail hot temperatures, without preservatives. -
You can do most hydrosols yourself. Provided you can buy the whole or powdered plant.
Since they’re water soluble, extraction ain’t no big deal. -
The formula is not supposed to cause any peel off.
So there are only 2 logical optionsA. An ingredient was mismanufactured, or mislabeled.
B. You’re allergic or having an adverse reaction to an ingredient.Besides knock-off tests, you can try solo tests, where you try every single ingredient separately, dissolved in water in the same percentage as in the formula.
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Probably only Glyceryl cocoate/oleate/stearate can be considered natural emulsifiers.
http://lipochemicals.com/system/files/brochures/Natural%20Emulsifiers.pdfTo make it truly organic/natural you’d probably need an anhydrous (no water) formulation, so everything is suspended, not dissolved in coconut oil. IDK how that’ll feel though.
Coco oil melts in hot weather so you’d need some naturally found gums and thicker “oils” like beeswax to thicken it while keeping it truly natural.You’d need Calcium carbonate or so. Not metallic Calcium, God forbid.
You’d need a surfactant (detergent) to at least provide some foaming.
There’s some unfulfilled market for truly natural toothpastes. But you’ll need to read and experiment a lot lot.
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Letting it sit in a shallow, wide pan gives more surface area for oxygen to attack it.
Conceivably, you can let it sit inside a closed bottle full of Oxygen:
A. Either buy or rent a small Oxygen tank or Oxygen concentrator, “pour” some Oxygen in the bottle with a hose and quickly cap the bottle.
B. A large bottle or vessel with separate but contiguous container full of Hydrogen Peroxide so it releases Oxygen on decomposition (along with water, so its moist atmosphere might skew results a bit).
Don’t pour Hydrogen peroxide directly on the sample, though.
You can even add some Manganese Dioxide, Silver or Platinum shavings to the Hydrogen peroxide container, as it reportedly speeds up its decomposition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide#DecompositionSomething like this
only with no cap in the inner bottle, it being filled with Hydrogen peroxide
surrounded by the sample to test in the larger bottle. -
What the heck is CDE?
At lest post the complete chemical names and percentages in order to get help. -
1. EDTA should be 0.1%, not 1%
2. check your pH. High EDTA can make it too alkaline.
3. Try lowering or removing glycerin and PQ-7 to see if it gets less sticky.
4. Try it without the fragrance first.
5. What is EHGP?
6. Active SLES should be 8%+ so that it can be properly thickened with salt. -
Real deionized water is devoid of most soluble gases like CO2.
By the time you finished formulating, it became distilled water since it absorbs gases from the atmosphere.Quality distilled water is enough.
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If you can neutralize lineal sulfonic acid with Potassium Hydroxide, instead of Sodium Hydroxide, it may be better.
Be careful when diluting KOH with water. It gets real hot.Also SLS will likely yield better foam with bigger bubbles than SLES.
Then its a matter of experimentation to get better foam stability with Cocamide or Betaines.What difference did you notice with and without urea?
I’ve seen urea in some dishwash formulas and patents but never tried it. -
Interesting.
I wonder where/how Paul Mitchell got their formulas fine-tuned with no R&D dept whatsoever.
Many people swear Their products are pretty unique. But I wonder if that’s just because they’re heavily marketed at beauty salons, or if they’re truly special. -
Bankrupt yes
but another judge can sometimes rule the company can remain on business,
pay a relatively small lump sum up front
and a continuous percentage of percentage of profits or revenues, even if it would take 500 years to pay the awarded amount in full.Not a legal advise:
Depending on your country laws
the registered legal representative (not necessarily the CEO or director) can get his personal assets forfeited even if he owns little or no company’ stocks.Just for fun
watch The Simpsons episode where the nuclear plant legal rep is a canary (yes, a bird) and not Mr. Burns as expected. -
Is that a leave-on ( leave-in ) or rinse-off conditioner?
If it’s rinse-off, I don’t think glycerin, keratin or avocado oil will do much in the short time it’s left on hair, so you can remove them or lower them to claim-ingredients levels.
There’s a study by Ajinomoto that says that most proteins and aminoacids are worthless even in leave-on products, unless the pH is really low.
Only Arginine has acceptable deposition at practical pH levels.You can add BTMS-50 + dimethicone, a water-dispersible silicone, or Amodimethicone blends. This will probably be the easiest and best method.
You can also add some Polyquaterniums and other cationics, but IDK if they’d condition any more than Behentrimonium/Cetrimonium already do.
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/123/slip-in-conditioner