Do you still want or need adding Cetrimonium if you already have BTMS-50 in conditioners?

Formulating

Do you still want or need adding Cetrimonium if you already have BTMS-50 in conditioners?

Posted by Gunther on June 27, 2018 at 7:55 pm

Behentrimonium is almost identical to Cetrimonium, just with a longer carbon chain, that makes it less water soluble.

I DID felt some extra detangling and smoothness from the added Cetrimonium, but so did some extra BTMS-50 as well.

Leave-on conditioner formula:
Heated phase:
90% water
0.5% Methylparaben (will later switch to something like 0.4% Methylparaben + 0.1% propylparaben)
1.5% BTMS-50
Cool down phase:
1.5% Dimethicone
0.86% Generic CETAC solution @29% ( 0.25% active CETAC )
1.5% Dehyquart GC 7 BZ (Polyquaternium-7)
citric acid qs to pH 6
water qs to 100%

Rinse-off formula
Heated phase:
85% water

0.5% Methylparaben (will later switch to something like 0.4% Methylparaben + 0.1% propylparaben)

5% BTMS-50

Cool down phase:

2% Dimethicone

2% Generic CETAC solution @29% ( 0.58% active CETAC )

1.5% Dehyquart GC 7 BZ (Polyquaternium-7)

citric acid qs to pH 6

water qs to 100%

I didn’t like the feel from extra fatty alcohols (BTMS-50 already has some in it)
Keep or dump CETAC?
Is adding Guar hydroxypropyltrimonium-Cl likely to help, or be overkill?
Any other suggestions?

markj187 replied 5 years, 10 months ago 6 Members · 13 Replies
13 Replies

OldPerry

Member
June 27, 2018 at 10:49 pm

I’d be skeptical that you could actually tell much difference. Did you do a test on a blinded basis? I’d suggest a triangle test. 2 samples of one type and 1 sample of another type. See if you can pick out the different one.

I doubt you’ll notice any effect of addition of Guar with Dimethicone and such already in there.
DAS

Member
June 27, 2018 at 11:23 pm

BTMS has a better performance, to me it’s a waste of money.
sven

Member
June 30, 2018 at 5:44 pm

@Gunther, interesting formula. btms very difficult to get hold of here so i add a bit of an emulsifier in
markj187

Member
July 1, 2018 at 2:40 am

CETAC won’t make a significant difference as it is less conditioning than BTMS 50. BTMS 50 is better at detangling too.

I used to make a conditioner with BTMS 50 and 2% CETAC. Removed CETAC because I ran out and my wife, who is my personal tester didn’t notice the difference on her long hair.

I use CETAC though on conditioning shampoo and it does make a difference together with PQ-7
Gunther

Member
July 2, 2018 at 5:47 pm

@sven IMO BTMS is a must. It makes dimethicone, and oil emulsions easier and better feeling.

@markj187 was the CETAC shampoo recipe nonionic?
Have you tried adding CETAC (or BTMS) to an anionic surfactant?
sven

Member
July 2, 2018 at 6:00 pm

@Gunther spend most of the day looking for btms but no luck. Can get bhentrimonium chloride easy enough but not the methosulfate. BASF is pushing their dehyquat c4046 but it us hellishly expensive
antmagn

Member
July 3, 2018 at 3:02 pm

For some reason which I cannot explain, I find methosulfate way better than chloride .
Gunther

Member
July 3, 2018 at 3:20 pm

Me too.
@antmagn did you use bare Behentrimonium methosulfate or was it BTMS blend?
markj187

Member
July 4, 2018 at 11:41 am

@Gunther Yes, it’s anioinic. I have tried it in 2 versions. Worked out fine at 2%. I add CETAC last after CAPB

1. SMC taurate + CAPB + Decyl Glucoside
2. SLES + Sodium Coco Sulfate + CAPB.
Gunther

Member
July 4, 2018 at 4:37 pm

CETAC after CAPB?
Did you wait for CETAC to “react” (actually more of a complex-formation, not an actual chemical reaction) with CAPB? How long?

So the addition order was:
1. SMC taurate then CAPB, then CETAC, then Decyl Glucoside
2. SLES, then Sodium Coco Sulfate, then CAPB, then CETAC
Is that right?

I’m asking because the order seems different than Cationics, then CAPB, then Glucosides, then Anionics that @chemicalmatt recommended.
markj187

Member
July 5, 2018 at 2:27 pm

@Gunther

1. SMC taurate, Decyl glucoside, CAPB, then CETAC.

2. SLES, SCS, CAPB, then CETAC.

I did find formulations at Kao Chemicals where the order is cationics + CAPB then add the anionics after. There’s even one using Behentrimonium Chloride with SLES.

I think mine worked because I used a high amount of CAPB . On the 2 versions above, I used CAPB at 15% (4.5 ASM). This might have helped in preventing the cationic reacting with the anionics
Gunther

Member
July 6, 2018 at 1:55 pm

Great

@markj187 do you happen to have a link for the Kao addition order?
While I found this Kao SLES+CAPB+behentrimonium recipe, it doesn’t mention any specific order
http://www.kaochemicals-eu.com/sites/default/files/related_files/business_unit/2014-02-01_kao_sofcare_eng.pdf

This Kao patent claims anionic (SLES) + amphoteric (CAPB) +behentrimonium helps preserve dyed hair color, but still doesn’t mention any addition order

Example 1

% by weight

Sodium lauryl ether sulphate 10.6

Cocamidopropyl betaine 3.0

Sodium lauroyl glutamate 2.5

Decyl glucoside 2.0

Cetrimonium chloride 0.7

Polyqauternium-10 0.5

PEG-90 glyceryl isostearate 3.0

Citric acid/sodium hydroxide q.s. to pH 5.5

Preservative, fragrance q.s

Water to 100

The above shampoo was judged to have rich and creamy foam in a monadic test by the volunteers. It was furthermore mentioned that it foams very quickly.

Additionally, the hair washed was excellently combable, had good shine, volume and body.

The above cleansing composition was tested against a composition not comprising cetrimonium chlrode chloride for its colour wash out effect. It was observed that the composition of Example 1 washed out much less colour that the composition not comprising the amino acid and cationic surfactant. It should be noted that the amino acid and cationic surfactants were replaced by anionic and non-ionic surfactants, respectively.

The colour was out test was carried out at 40 °C using coloured hair tresses dipped into 5% solution of cleansing composition which were shaken at a speed of 50 pm. At predetermined times the tresses were taken out and after drying the colour was measured suing laboratory equipment and colour differences were calculated with well known method in the art. Similar results were observed with the compositions below.
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2013098210A1/en
markj187

Member
July 8, 2018 at 11:59 am

I have been planning to make this but we still have some shampoo left.

Here’s the link. They add Behentrimonium Chloride + PQ7 + CAPB before adding anionics.

http://www.kaochemicals-eu.com/sites/default/files/formulations/c-244.pdf