[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

Btw I recently discovered sepimat sb by Seppic. Go to for mattifying. I use it in face powder but it’s used in emulsions.

Thank you.  I think I am more about not wanting shine…vs needing matte…if that makes any sense at all.  The formula as is (but not done), is in a happy place for me.  I love to learn about new products, so keep throwing them at me!

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

What do montanovs emulsifiers do that 165 doesn’t? Emolliency?

YES!  As far as emulsifying….nothing beats 165…we all know that.
As far as feel…. especially adding some 68 to the 202… really gives a silky glide.  The original plan…after getting most of the pieces in places….was to work on the feel, tweak the esters and add-ons…but after adding the 68… That whole process got scrapped.  It feels amazing as is.  Nothing like the 165 only or M 202 only.
Of course I have followed all your other recommendations on polymerics and carbomer, and Pharma’s cascading emollient (ester) program.  Combined with some very silky oils…Babassu, Camellia and Meadowfoam plus Rosehip and Raspberry seed oils.
And the 68 seemed to bring more emolliency that the 202… But the 202 makes for a very lite feel…and matte finish that I like.  I did not try….Just a M 68 formula…and do not intend on it.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

Have you tried 3:2 for 202:68 + 0.6% to 0.8% Aristoflex?

Just thinking how it should go at at the moment. It’s the combo i’d try.  

I tried 3 to 1 (202 to 68)…and liked that.  Still had the full silky feel that the 68 brings…but the lightness of the 202.
Yes… I use .6% Aristo or Zen (still trying to decide…but leaning towards Zen), plus a dab of carbomer.
As mentioned above…I used .25% SSG.  So not exactly sure what made the difference…I also took the temps up a little higher after reading Seppic’s formulation pages.

[Graillotion]

I read a forum from 2016…and it suggested Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate as a co-emulsifier for Montanov 68.  Is this still the thinking?

I did make the formula again today, this time with a 3 to 1 ratio of Mont 202 and Mont 68 + .25% SSG….and it behaved as expected.  (The formula also includes a polymeric emulsifier at low rate.)

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

That sounds like some PEG-based emulsifiers which show phase inversion above a certain temperature. In theory, Montanovs do not have such a PIT (phase inversion temperature) and hence, are unresponsive to temperature changes.

However, high temperature may prevent lamellar and liquid crystalline structures from forming. PEG-100 stearate is different and hence, you’re probably used to ‘real’ emulsions meaning small oil droplets formed in water like pea in a soup. What you have now at hand is more like lasagne or puff pastry. Unlike ‘pea soup’ emulsions which get finer and more stable the harder/faster/longer you mix, that kind of emulsion requires time and forms rather spontaneously.

If it looks good at room temperature there’s a fair chance that it actually is good. Some stress tests or a few months on a shelf would tell you more.

So am I damaging my lamellar structures…by homogenizing more than I should, trying to discover at what point (temperature) it will create the final emulsion?

My roto-stator emulsifier is spending way more time in the beaker than I would like.  I stop very quickly after the emulsion finally forms.

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

As I always say if it’s for your own use and there’s no customer who wants ‘natural green and organic’ just use lotionpro 165. Aka arlacel 165. Aka GMS+peg-100 stearate. It’s a bulletproof solution.

Hehehe….so far all the products I sell…are 165 based.   
I have made this formula, also using 165, and the feeling that is created with mixing M 202 and M 68…. is mind blowing compared with 165.  

It always finally goes into emulsion….when it finds the temp it likes.  So I will try a 75% M 202 and 25% M 68, and see if I can keep the feel, and maybe it will be a little more user friendly.  M 202 has been as easy to work with as 165.  Montanov 68….Not so much!

[Graillotion]

 When you check the pH of distilled water….what do you get?  (Just checking to make sure the tester is working. 

Alpha arbutin is 4.9 pH. 

[Graillotion]

What form of Niacinamide are you using?  At that pH doesn’t it cause some issues? (Nicotinic acid?)

[Graillotion]

I guess if I sold it….small pack….I’d have a monopoly.   

[Graillotion]

helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

helenhelen said:

I am! :p Out of the nearly one hundred rejected raw materials I’ve tried over six months, diglycerin has made it in. I’m not sure why it’s not more widely available.

Where are you buying this….you have peaked my interest. 

@Graillotion Haha I knew you would be interested! I’m currently using a sample of Resassol DN from Res Pharma. I haven’t found anywhere reputable it can simply be bought yet unfortunately.

Well…I couldn’t find it either….other than ULP.  I guess if I can’t buy small amounts….no point in trying something I might love!?   

[Graillotion]

I think @MarkBroussard might also give this product a thumbs up.

[Graillotion]

It has several different uses.  As you know…I am a fan of it.

I use it in one product as part of a fragrance fixative (very low rate)…and I get EO’s to still have a strong scent after 8 hours.

I also use it in other products for TEWL enhancement at 4 or 5X the rate.  I do not use a meter, but from the day I started using it, the products started performing the way I hoped they would.

@jemolian has also started working with it, and might be able to provide some input.

I am not a chemist.

[Graillotion]

helenhelen said:

I am! :p Out of the nearly one hundred rejected raw materials I’ve tried over six months, diglycerin has made it in. I’m not sure why it’s not more widely available.

Where are you buying this….you have peaked my interest. 

[Graillotion]

Could you list the oils you are using?

I concur, I typically sweat after a shower, but I always thought it was because of this:

I shower typically after doing physical labor, so my core temperature is elevated.  Add to that, I shower in warm water, compounding the warming of the body.

Therefore I felt that my body was just doing its job of cooling, by sweating in an attempt to lower the core temp, plus the elevated skin temp from the shower water.

I have started applying the moisturizer about 30 min after the shower, and that seems to help.  I do NOT suffer from dry skin.

[Graillotion]

 said:

Graillotion said:

Loving reading this chat!    All I know…is with a few tweaks I have eliminated the soaping, in my opinion, entirely.  Basically in a nut shell… removing all (added) stearic, adding a little cetyl (see chemical Matt’s comment….up near the top.)  And adding two slipperies at relatively high levels, the afore mentioned Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and my new favorite ingredient, Isoamyl Laurate (super spreader).  
All this…and no ‘Cones’, but every bit the feeling of ‘Cones.  The IL does the trick…at 6% inclusion! Not as cheap as ‘cones’….but with stimulus checks….who cares? :#  

That…and Pharma has been an amazing help!  Thank You!

Hey! The soaping effect has been something that’s bugged me for ages when I tried to make myself a cream. I’ve changed my emulsifier, swapped out steric acid for 2% cetyl, I’ve got Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables in the recipe (5%), and taking your suggestion here on board I’ve used Isoamyl Laurate (6%). Yet it’s still soaping!! Honestly, it’s been driving me mental how nothing seems to work. I wondered if you could share some of your percentages for this batch that seemed to work out for you. How much emulsifier do you use, or suggest to use? 

Essentially my recipe is 68% water phase, and the rest is a mix of oils, including 2% cetyl, 6% IL, 5% HOOU and 3% Caprylic/capric triglyceride. 

What was your emulsifier?

[Graillotion]

Stacy88 said:

Graillotion said:

Well…in order to test the theory of humectants….make a small batch without the Propylene glycol, (and without the glycerin) and see if you still sweat.

Done that already and it’s still the same thing. I’m guessing it the e wax

Yes…I think the next most likely culprit.

[Graillotion]

Has anyone else tried your product…and gotten the same result?

[Graillotion]

Well…in order to test the theory of humectants….make a small batch without the Propylene glycol, (and without the glycerin) and see if you still sweat.

[Graillotion]

You did not mention time of application (related to bathing), and the humidity of your environment?

I live on the wet side of Hawaii….where humidity is often above 90%.  I find it is simply the humectants being effective….that I get what appears to be sweat…if I apply immediately after showering, on a humid day.

I know from chats with other members in places like Singapore, they have to limit or monitor humectant levels, to reflect their environment.

If you live in a dry climate….you can pile them on.  If you live in a very humid climate…they will do their job…..in excess!  

[Graillotion]

helenhelen said:

Hi @Graillotion did you get to try DuraQuench in the end?

I did not, after further review, probably did not add anything exceptional.  Also….using in the DuraQuench format….would have really muddled the label…hehehe.
I did make the formula yesterday, adding some cetyl esters….and felt that was a nice addition.  I also have some Lauryl Laurate arriving tomorrow…will see how I like that in there.
Then just a matter of picking my butter/s….and experimenting will all the combinations of Mont 202, Mont 68, and Aristoflex.
So far I am loving the combo of Mont 202 and Aristoflex.

[Graillotion]

The 165 emulsifier is about the most bulletproof, all around emulsifier on the market.  Nuff said.

[Graillotion]

Well…. Here is the first shot at it… I guess that CoQ10…Raspberry seed oil, and Rosehip seed oil….colors came through.

[Graillotion]

How about Montanov 202.

Kill all the birds with one stone.   

[Graillotion]

I am very aware of the rules…hehehe.

SPF will not be advertised or mentioned….just hoping it would come along for the ride!

I actually have a mosquito lotion I market…and never once use the word ‘repel’…. hehehe.

I am ultra conservative on what my labels say… I let the products speak for themselves.  The stores that sell my products…all offer samples….that is enough to keep me busy!

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

I would not rely on spf provided by oil. Perry has a blogpost here on this topic that explains it very well. Long story short, you might get spf 1-2, what does that change?

When you use Aristoflex in a cream emulsion….do you add it to the water or oil….seems like it can be done either way?  Guessing it might not start to gel, if in the oil phase…therefore making it slightly easier to work with?
Or…are you adding it post-emulsion…as that also seems to be an option?
Making my first run today…hehhe…fingers crossed.