[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

It’s all about marketing. Having said that it would make sense to have light sensitive ingredients such as retinol in a nigh cream and spf in a day product.

I was planning on using Red Raspberry Seed oil for the base of my cream.  I read lots about the natural SPF of that oil?  Is this hype or legit?  Since I will use it as the primary oil….the cream might have nearly 10% of this oil?

[Graillotion]

chemicalmatt said:

Folks, just keep in mind that comedogenicty is concentration dependent. Sweet Almond Oil is one of the highest rated - at 100% - but at 5% in your formula, not so much. With these surfactants, same holds true. Allergenicity is a broader issue and phenotype specific. 

I assumed as much, and since the primary emulsifier will probably be in the top 5 ingredients, it aroused my attention.  Since my goal is for Montanov 202 to win this competition, I think I am in good standing with both comedogenics and allergens.
Even though diluting comedogenic materials will in functionality reduce the potential for pore clogging, it might cause an educated consumer (or I suppose, uneducated can also be inserted here) to hesitate to buy the end product.  Therefore if I can eliminate them up front….I eliminate purchase hurdles down the road.
Thank you for your comments.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

Unfortunately, I’ve not really tested on butters because i’ve only seen most of the china sellers sell limited butters and most of them only stock shea butter, so i can’t really give an opinion on the rest. 

I have only found one source of butters that I consider…OUTSTANDING.  

International Cosmetics Science Centre A/S

Phone: +45 86 22 99 86 • http://www.icsc.dk • reu@ifsc.dk

Address: Cedervej 7, DK-8462 Harlev J - DENMARK

 

 

 Keep in mind….their products are ultra refined….no scent….no color … just light amazing goodness.  Some would disagree with me…if you can not smell the fires of the Amazon burning that they used to extract the raw butter out in the forest…hehehe.

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

@Graillotion 
The oils is extra virgin olive oil or coconut oil. 
The emulsifier is Polyglyceryl-4 Laurate.
Cetearyl alcohol or glyceryl stearate to increase the viscosity.

I think those are some heavy weights….so keep them low….lower than 14%.  There are things you can add to decrease their heavy feel.  I have not worked with heavy oils like that….so not much help.  I use a lot of esters and light weight oils.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

I’ve not tested the feel or texture combo extensively, so i can’t comment on that too much. One of my test base combination was:

3% Montanov L
1.5% Cetyl Alcohol
0.6% Aristoflex
0.15% Ultrex 21
3% Capric / Caprylic Triglyceride
3% Glycerin

It turned out to be a very creamy moisturizer. 

You have been such a wealth of information….let me toss this one at you.  I have a couple of butters I use for my lotions…and want to know which ones have a low comedogenic rating…. I am aware of Shea…but never really liked the feel.
I also have Mango….but I like the below butters much better.

I bought Kokum just for the facial cream…as I believe it is also a 0.  I also use Illipe (Shorea Stenoptera)
Cupuacu
Murumuru
and have a sample of Pentadema Butter (Kpangnan) on the way.

Do you know the Comedogenic rating on any of these?  I like to blend butters…hehehhee.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

I think if you are not using any electrolytes, you can consider using 3% to 4% Montanov 202 with 0.75% to 1% Aristoflex, depending on how thick you need the moisturizer to be. If you are using some small amounts of electrolytes, then 1% to 1.5% Sepinov should be fine. 

Though with the K-20W, using carbomers would be fine as well. Normally i’d use Ultrez 10 or 20 depending on the electrolytes.  

I had read someone’s comment…and maybe I understood it incorrectly….but that maybe there was a synergy regarding ‘feel’ with carbomer and Aristoflex AVC….?  Had you ever heard or experienced this?

[Graillotion]

For the face cream…I have kicked all the electrolytes out.  So that I could try and max the sensories with the Aristoflex AVC (as a co-emulsifier) and the likes.  I think the only one left….is EDTA at .2%.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

No problem. I have to return the favor for the K-20W recommendation somehow. If you need the rest of the Montanov ones, i believe i should have it. 

Nope….gonna test 202….and probably a mix of 202 and 68…. Then 68, and 165… And pick the best… (will also be testing combinations above with Sepinov EMT 10, and Aristoflex AVC….so the possible combinations….is already really high!)

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

I’m still observing the performance of the K-20W over a few days.

I added too much by accident, so it was 3.5%, for initial observation, it seems that is increases glide and also detacks the humectants significantly. Previously my pillow case would stick to my face slightly but with the K-20W, it seems totally fine. I probably can readjust the other ingredients accordingly to increase humectancy. 

Glad to hear you are liking it.  I now use it in all my products…hehehe…even my mosquito lotion (fragrance fixative).  It will be part of the face creams I will start developing this week.  Hehehe…hope it doesn’t take me a year…like my last two projects! 

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

I believe seppic has tested them so you normally can find some reference to that in their longer product info PDFs. Below are my dropbox links to the files if you haven’t saved them before: 

Montanov 202
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ri9tfvxjlcaz0t9/0922_Montanov_202_logo%20gb%5B1%5D.pdf?dl=0

Montanov 68
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru7s5v7dms51bu5/montanov%2068.pdf?dl=0

For the 165 type, not sure if any manufacturer as tested it since they are widely produced. 

According to your inci decoder site….165 has a rating of 1-2.  So of the three….Mont 202 in the only non comedogenic of the three emulsifiers.

To be honest…it was the one I was most excited about trying….1) PEG Free, 2) Matte finish…sorry…I just hate the gloss.

Thank you for helping me sort through those.  I really like the detailed links on the Montanov emulsifiers.

[Graillotion]

Sponge said:

Have you considered additives rather than changing your oil selection?

You mean like the emulsifier?  (Yes, Mont 202 on list to test)

Or fatty alcohol?  I have tried MM…but did not care for it.  Like C Esters better than C alcohol.

… What additive would take the gloss out of something like Abyssinian?

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

Normally as part of a formulation challenge to myself, sometimes i will setup some weird challenge for my moisturizers, but i’d normally run through my ingredients via the following to see how consumers would perceive it: 

• https://www.skincarisma.com/ingredient-analyzer
• https://cosmily.com/ingredient-checker
• https://incidecoder.com/decode-inci
• https://www.cosdna.com/eng/ingredients.php
• https://folliculitisscout.com/ 

Comedogenicity varies from person to person so, it still largely depends on the person if they would break out from it. 

Thank you….these are useful tools I had not come across before!

[Graillotion]

I did find the answer on one of the emulsifiers, Mont 202:

Montanonv 202 is that it gives creams a unique evanescent and light feel with a matt finish. It also leaves the skin soft, but not oily, is hypoallergenic and non-comedogenic making it perfect for both oily and sensitive skin formulas.

[Graillotion]

Some of the co-emulsifiers I will try are:
Aristoflex AVC
Sepinov EMT 10
Eumulgin SG (Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate)

But since these will be used at lower rates…not sure if I need to be as concerned?

[Graillotion]

I have a 35% oil phase in my last project….and it is super light and quick absorbing…..change 1% of that to castor oil…..and you have a mess…

So many variables….the heavier the oils…the less you need.  When I say 35%, that is the total of the oil phase…. emulsifiers, slip and slide ingredients, fatty alcohols, butters and oils.

[Graillotion]

8-35%….hehhehe…

You need to state your goals.  Question is too vague.  Maybe also list intended oils…as that makes a huge difference….even from refined to raw.  Even the choice of your emulsifier will determine how oily a certain percentage of oils will feel.  You can make a 12% oil lotion with one emulsifier that will feel oily….create a second batch with a different emulsifier….a totally different feel.  The choice of your fatty alcohol….will also change the feel or perception of oiliness. 

[Graillotion]

Graillotion said:

jemolian said:

I can’t remember which shop i bought it from, i think FSS, but the smell made me gag a little. Not using it ever again. You can try it and see if you are fine with it though. 

Got mine from LotionCrafters….absolutely no negative smell…and essentially…No smell.  Neat it is very nice, will formulate with it later today.

Tried the BioLatum today….in a rather dry lotion…and at 1%, it took it to something I did not care for, shiny, and residual oiliness.  My skin does not soak up oil like a sponge.  
I have been between the horns of a dilemma, I have a premium lotion that is dialed in….and I am updating my basic (lower cost ) lotion, and the only way I know how to fix it….is make it just like the premium one….hehehe..  So I guess I will just up the KW20 to get my TEWL back to where it needs to be…same as the premium product.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

I’ll try it at 2% with Isononyl Isononanoate, Aquaxyl and Glycerin and see how it will change the moisturization performance or skin feel.

Have you worked with Aquaxyl much?
It keeps catching my eye.

If so…where did you get if from…and what are your thoughts about it?

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

That’s great, i’ll maybe order from Lotioncrafter next time to test it out again. The K-20W i bought from Nobleroots just arrived so i’m also eager to test it out over the weekend. Took some time since i’m not in the US. 

I felt like my product really took a turn for the better….when I introduced KW20 **to it.  I use 2% (dissolved in the same amount of glycerin) for TEWL, and .5% in another product for fragrance fixation.

BTW… LC said they make the BioLatum in house…so it will not be the same as the one from FSS.

**  If you have not used KW20 before… you need to dissolve it in equal amounts of glycerin before adding to your water phase.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

I can’t remember which shop i bought it from, i think FSS, but the smell made me gag a little. Not using it ever again. You can try it and see if you are fine with it though. 

Got mine from LotionCrafters….absolutely no negative smell…and essentially…No smell.  Neat it is very nice, will formulate with it later today.

[Graillotion]

Zink said:

Lotionpro™ 165 $6/lb (Glyceryl Stearate, PEG 100 Stearate)  Very common due to its low cost.

I would have to say…. Very common due to excellent performance….not cost!  

Why not blend them?  (165 and BTMS)  I blend 165 and Varisoft EQ 65…and get the best of both worlds.  It is hard to beat the stability of 165.

[Graillotion]

domicanica said:

because some ingredients just don’t stand up to high shear mixing which is what the emulsifier would do right?

What would be an example?  You have an ingredient that you want to leave as chunks?

[Graillotion]

domicanica said:

Graillotion said:

The biggest functional difference between the cheap stick blenders….and the Mini-pro….is the ability to adjust speed.  None of the cheap ones that I burned through….could operate slowly.  Their slowest setting was faster than I often wanted in certain situations.  
The other thing….as I burned through 3 of them in about 9 months….they actually ended up being no cheaper….than one good one.   

You can not measure cost…when you need to slowly stir air out of your emulsion towards the end.

oooh okay, i see. i think i’ll end up going with this one, it’s in my price range and sounds like my best bet since im just starting out. did you have to buy this attachment tool as well? : https://www.dynamicmixersusa.com/product/ac560/

As a bit of a perfectionist….I did buy that attachment….and I believe I paid more for it…than the machine.
It was completely unnecessary!  Could not tell any difference in performance with the attachments that came with it (4).  ** Note ** so far I only used it in small 240 gm batches, my opinion may change as I ramp up into 4L batches.
However…as I switch to a new project, using lamellar emulsifiers, I think it will come in handy….where I can easily switch attachments after making the initial emulsion, and then switch to the other attachment during cool down and stirring.
Note….this is a very heavy…well built machine.  (Made in France)  So it will not be a light weight made in China gadget you may have seen in stores.  Being that it is therefore a little top heavy…always make sure to be careful…if you are leaving it standing up in a small sample beaker.  (Lost more than one batch…to an unfortunate tip over.)

[Graillotion]

The biggest functional difference between the cheap stick blenders….and the Mini-pro….is the ability to adjust speed.  None of the cheap ones that I burned through….could operate slowly.  Their slowest setting was faster than I often wanted in certain situations.  
The other thing….as I burned through 3 of them in about 9 months….they actually ended up being no cheaper….than one good one.   

You can not measure cost…when you need to slowly stir air out of your emulsion towards the end.

[Graillotion]

Take a look at this one:
https://www.katom.com/048-MX07015.html

The beauty of this one…is that it has the biggest range of speeds…infinite adjustment from 0 rpm to 13,000 rpm…..so it can both emulsify and stir, unlike the cheapies on Amazon….which the lowest speed is well beyond the realm of stirring.
Very heavy duty and high quality.

Regarding which is more important… emulsifier vs stirrer….I think this question can only be answered based on which emulsifiers you intend on using!

Note…I have the above machine…and could not be more tickled with it….after burning through 3 of the Amazon types…hehehe.