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jemolian said:

Normally as part of a formulation challenge to myself, sometimes i will setup some weird challenge for my moisturizers, but i’d normally run through my ingredients via the following to see how consumers would perceive it: 

• https://www.skincarisma.com/ingredient-analyzer
• https://cosmily.com/ingredient-checker
• https://incidecoder.com/decode-inci
• https://www.cosdna.com/eng/ingredients.php
• https://folliculitisscout.com/ 

Comedogenicity varies from person to person so, it still largely depends on the person if they would break out from it. 

Thank you….these are useful tools I had not come across before!

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I did find the answer on one of the emulsifiers, Mont 202:

Montanonv 202 is that it gives creams a unique evanescent and light feel with a matt finish. It also leaves the skin soft, but not oily, is hypoallergenic and non-comedogenic making it perfect for both oily and sensitive skin formulas.

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Some of the co-emulsifiers I will try are:
Aristoflex AVC
Sepinov EMT 10
Eumulgin SG (Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate)

But since these will be used at lower rates…not sure if I need to be as concerned?

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I have a 35% oil phase in my last project….and it is super light and quick absorbing…..change 1% of that to castor oil…..and you have a mess…

So many variables….the heavier the oils…the less you need.  When I say 35%, that is the total of the oil phase…. emulsifiers, slip and slide ingredients, fatty alcohols, butters and oils.

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8-35%….hehhehe…

You need to state your goals.  Question is too vague.  Maybe also list intended oils…as that makes a huge difference….even from refined to raw.  Even the choice of your emulsifier will determine how oily a certain percentage of oils will feel.  You can make a 12% oil lotion with one emulsifier that will feel oily….create a second batch with a different emulsifier….a totally different feel.  The choice of your fatty alcohol….will also change the feel or perception of oiliness. 

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Graillotion said:

jemolian said:

I can’t remember which shop i bought it from, i think FSS, but the smell made me gag a little. Not using it ever again. You can try it and see if you are fine with it though. 

Got mine from LotionCrafters….absolutely no negative smell…and essentially…No smell.  Neat it is very nice, will formulate with it later today.

Tried the BioLatum today….in a rather dry lotion…and at 1%, it took it to something I did not care for, shiny, and residual oiliness.  My skin does not soak up oil like a sponge.  
I have been between the horns of a dilemma, I have a premium lotion that is dialed in….and I am updating my basic (lower cost ) lotion, and the only way I know how to fix it….is make it just like the premium one….hehehe..  So I guess I will just up the KW20 to get my TEWL back to where it needs to be…same as the premium product.

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jemolian said:

I’ll try it at 2% with Isononyl Isononanoate, Aquaxyl and Glycerin and see how it will change the moisturization performance or skin feel.

Have you worked with Aquaxyl much?
It keeps catching my eye.

If so…where did you get if from…and what are your thoughts about it?

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jemolian said:

That’s great, i’ll maybe order from Lotioncrafter next time to test it out again. The K-20W i bought from Nobleroots just arrived so i’m also eager to test it out over the weekend. Took some time since i’m not in the US. 

I felt like my product really took a turn for the better….when I introduced KW20 **to it.  I use 2% (dissolved in the same amount of glycerin) for TEWL, and .5% in another product for fragrance fixation.

BTW… LC said they make the BioLatum in house…so it will not be the same as the one from FSS.

**  If you have not used KW20 before… you need to dissolve it in equal amounts of glycerin before adding to your water phase.

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jemolian said:

I can’t remember which shop i bought it from, i think FSS, but the smell made me gag a little. Not using it ever again. You can try it and see if you are fine with it though. 

Got mine from LotionCrafters….absolutely no negative smell…and essentially…No smell.  Neat it is very nice, will formulate with it later today.

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Zink said:

Lotionpro™ 165 $6/lb (Glyceryl Stearate, PEG 100 Stearate)  Very common due to its low cost.

I would have to say…. Very common due to excellent performance….not cost!  

Why not blend them?  (165 and BTMS)  I blend 165 and Varisoft EQ 65…and get the best of both worlds.  It is hard to beat the stability of 165.

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domicanica said:

because some ingredients just don’t stand up to high shear mixing which is what the emulsifier would do right?

What would be an example?  You have an ingredient that you want to leave as chunks?

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domicanica said:

Graillotion said:

The biggest functional difference between the cheap stick blenders….and the Mini-pro….is the ability to adjust speed.  None of the cheap ones that I burned through….could operate slowly.  Their slowest setting was faster than I often wanted in certain situations.  
The other thing….as I burned through 3 of them in about 9 months….they actually ended up being no cheaper….than one good one.   

You can not measure cost…when you need to slowly stir air out of your emulsion towards the end.

oooh okay, i see. i think i’ll end up going with this one, it’s in my price range and sounds like my best bet since im just starting out. did you have to buy this attachment tool as well? : https://www.dynamicmixersusa.com/product/ac560/

As a bit of a perfectionist….I did buy that attachment….and I believe I paid more for it…than the machine.
It was completely unnecessary!  Could not tell any difference in performance with the attachments that came with it (4).  ** Note ** so far I only used it in small 240 gm batches, my opinion may change as I ramp up into 4L batches.
However…as I switch to a new project, using lamellar emulsifiers, I think it will come in handy….where I can easily switch attachments after making the initial emulsion, and then switch to the other attachment during cool down and stirring.
Note….this is a very heavy…well built machine.  (Made in France)  So it will not be a light weight made in China gadget you may have seen in stores.  Being that it is therefore a little top heavy…always make sure to be careful…if you are leaving it standing up in a small sample beaker.  (Lost more than one batch…to an unfortunate tip over.)

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The biggest functional difference between the cheap stick blenders….and the Mini-pro….is the ability to adjust speed.  None of the cheap ones that I burned through….could operate slowly.  Their slowest setting was faster than I often wanted in certain situations.  
The other thing….as I burned through 3 of them in about 9 months….they actually ended up being no cheaper….than one good one.   

You can not measure cost…when you need to slowly stir air out of your emulsion towards the end.

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Take a look at this one:
https://www.katom.com/048-MX07015.html

The beauty of this one…is that it has the biggest range of speeds…infinite adjustment from 0 rpm to 13,000 rpm…..so it can both emulsify and stir, unlike the cheapies on Amazon….which the lowest speed is well beyond the realm of stirring.
Very heavy duty and high quality.

Regarding which is more important… emulsifier vs stirrer….I think this question can only be answered based on which emulsifiers you intend on using!

Note…I have the above machine…and could not be more tickled with it….after burning through 3 of the Amazon types…hehehe.

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As you can see….the product I am working with…will have maximum viscosity in the range of 1.2-1.4% salt….assuming a pH of 6.  Changing the pH to 5.2….crashes the system.

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Changing the pH just by 1….can completely invert your salt curve.  Supplier should be able to provide you with a pH based salt curve.

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ifamuj said:

- If I cut sunflower oil to 10-15%, what can I replace the oil phase with to keep the formula consistent and simultaneously prevent the greasy feel? The chosen emulsifier seems to work best at an oil phase of 25-30%. 

Replace it with more water in the water phase.  It never feels greasy.

If you must add something to the oil phase…of all the things I tried…I liked this the best:

 Dermofeel Sensolv (Isoamyl Laurate)

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ifamuj said:

EVchem said:

you can also always try adding a starch to help with the stickyness, but too much will feel filmy. other than that @ngarayeva001 covered a lot of good suggestions

What sort of starches would be helpful?

I use arrowroot.

At about .8 to 1% in my premium products….and I have an oily product…(specialty niche)…where I am pushing 2%.

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I am a total novice at this…but I believe you get your pH right first…then add your salt.  The salt curve changes with the pH.  You are trying to hit a moving target. (and you are the one moving the target…hehehe.)

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I think it starts with their discipline….meaning…they will without fail…go through all the necessary steps (Korean beauty regiment)…, using quality products each day without fail!  And at some point…you have to look at genetics….if they minimize their sun (and they do at all costs)….they naturally look like they are 20 until age 50!  Everyone wants some of that!  
As I grew up in Korea…., and married to one….I see it first hand every day.  It is far more their discipline and genetics, than anything else.  In general, they will buy the ‘hottest thing going’, or something that is more expensive than the item next to it.  Ingredient research, based on my experience, is not a top priority…. Just have a couple of the hottest claim items in your product….sharp looking packaging….and you got it!

Note: Do not take my comments out of context…I have the utmost respect for their country and people!  These are just straightforward observations.

Note: I do sell some product…in Korea.

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jemolian said:

I can’t remember which shop i bought it from, i think FSS, but the smell made me gag a little. Not using it ever again. You can try it and see if you are fine with it though. 

Interesting…now of course….the first thing I will do when the package arrives….is take a deep whiff.  Ingredient listing did not look too stinky?

Luckily…I have another product I already use (K-20W) that does a pretty similar job (with no odor)….but I am always seeking the next great synergy.

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ETcellphone said:

Graillotion said:

Betaine is super hard to find….amongst the repackers….I have ONLY found it ONE place:
https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/VegeMoist_Beet_Sugar_Extract_/894

Would love to have an alternative source!!!

Thanks a lot for the link. It’s the closest I have come to being able to have access to it. Can I ask why you would prefer to have another source? Is their shipping super expensive? 

Well…maybe not their shipping…just their mark-up… A lot of redundant products they sell that others also sell…are much more expensive.  Considering what Betaine is…it should not be that costly of an item!  And….. shipping is pretty darn slow…I have usually forgotten I even have an order in with them….when it finally shows up.   I think they are very aware they have a monopoly on small pack cosmetic Betaine.

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alan123 said:

Squalane or babassu oil(cheaper)

Thank you.  I already use both in my other lotion…and had planned on bringing them forward in the face cream.  Really starting to like Babassu…and can’t beat the price either!  Squalane is the base oil for my (purchased) vitamin mix, so it only ever goes in at 1%.