[Graillotion]

To decrease soaping without using dimethicone, your slip and slide ingredients need to be approaching 10% (this does not include your natural oils).

you can lose the gum…if you sub in a polymeric emulsifier, which will also enhance texture.  A double win.

165 does very little thickening, so if that is your primary…you’ll need more Eumulgin…or Cetyl alcohol, or 202 as a ‘co’, or polymerics.

Your thin 202… looks like maybe you had a phase inversion…should be way thicker than that.  202 needs to be coupled with an Anionic.   Eumulgin or GSC.

When you make a 202 formula…are you getting it up to that 180-185F (83-85 C) range.  It requires more heat than any of the other common emulsifiers.

Describe in detail…how you combine the phases…. which into which…and with what kind of tool…and rpms, and duration.

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The 50g…is the ending amount of water.  Many start with about 10% extra water, as that is an average amount lost.

I weigh my beakers, and of course know the formula weight, so post emulsion, I toss it back on the scale….top off the water, and emulsify once again.  Since I start with 10% extra, very little is added at that point.  So you only need to weigh the beaker that both phases end up in.

Just remember….a formula always equals 100%.  Never 100% - evaporation.  

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Thank you for all the links @jeremien, I am digging into them now.

Do you know the ratio in the Symdiol 68?  From what I could see….it looks like it was pretty close to 50/50?

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jemolian said:

@helenhelen testing at 3% in 15% Aristoflex Avc, i think it’s hard to tell the difference between the two. Testing at 100% as is, they just feel about equally wet or slightly greasy, so not too much difference there as well. 

I’d say the difference would largely be perhaps the cost and what kind of use rate you’d like to have, besides from the potential irritation that each glycol or diol might cause for the user. Some people do look for Butylene Glycol free products while some people break out from Propanediol due to the high concentration from product range from The Ordinary. 

So what I hear you saying, from a possible marketing approach:  If I am using propanediol and Butylene glycol (which I am), that if I sub them out for hexanediol, Pentylene Glycol, and Caprylyl Glycol, it will be unlikely to change any of the sensories?  However it will enhance hurdles and possibly be more palatable to those scanning an INCI for Butylene and Propanediol?

(I was able to secure SymDiol 68, so hexanediol is back in play!)

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Copy and paste below…from Essential Wholesale lab:

• Semi-Custom Formulation (3 rounds in the lab) making 1-3 “simple” ingredient adjustments in an existing Essential stock product: $475.
• Full Custom Formulation (5 rounds in the lab) making 1-5 from-scratch prototypes to end up with exactly what you want. Most people need fewer than 5 rounds but if you need more, we can accommodate that. Custom formulation services start at $2,100.

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ifamuj said:

Graillotion said:

Yes, there could be a small subset of consumers that have the perception that PEG is bad. You will always find a group of misguided consumers that will balk at every possible ingredient you might include.  I would balk at the fact you had extracts in your product, which I would consider ‘bug food’.  So you can not please everyone, and in the end you need to make the most stable product you can….which would be 165 based.

Yes you can pair it with Emuligin, if you can bear the sensories.

When you say “bug food”, what do you mean by it? What ingredients fall under this category of ingredients?

Here is a quote from @Perry in another thread…that succinctly answers:

“Bug food” is any ingredient on which microbes can eat and grow. This can be sugars, carbohydrates, proteins, or a variety of other hydrocarbons found in cosmetics formulas. 

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Thank you @Pharma.  And so colorful! 

So using propanediol as an example… will something like 2% have much of an effect as a hurdle….or does it need a higher inclusion rate, say 5-6%?

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ggpetrov said:

Why do you have to use two emulsifiers instead of one? As far as I know the Montanov 68 is a stand alone emulsifier, and it already has a built in stabilizer in the name of Cetostearyl alcohol. The same is with the GMS SE. 

Pretty safe to assume you have not worked with the Montanov 68?

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PhilGeis said:

Appreciate you challenge.  Assumje you’ve ruled out formaldehyde releasers (?).
pH 6 isn’t great for sorbic acid, and benzoate might be a better choice if you can ,lower the pH.  Is 6 cast in stone?
Suggest you start testing and see what breaks through.

Thank you @P@PhilGeis

I am keeping the pH around 6 due to use of Nicotinamide, USP grade.  So I like to be a hair below 6 and above 5.5.

Yes, I was trying to not use the F releasers.

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MarkBroussard said:

If the pH of the end product is below 6.0:

Gluconolactone + Sodium Benzoate + Phenethyl Alcohol as preservatives, and
Sodium Glutamate Diacetate + Propanediol and/or Pentylene Glycol as potentiators

Is Sodium Phytate and acceptable sub for Sodium Glutamate Diacetate?  I already use Propanediol in everything.  Thank you @MarkBroussard.

Is that doubling up the chelator?  (Gluconolactone and Sodium Glutamate Diacetate)

Will this work…if pH is just barely below 6?  Thinking 5.5-5.8?

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PhilGeis said:

Preservation of products with “colloidal oatmeal”  is an experiment that requires preservative testing your confident. and prob a round or 2 including aged product before your coonfident.  Llook at the similar products on  the shelvees now.  You’ve phenoxyethyl alcohol - why add less effective phenethyl - unless its for rose odor?   Additions should be the more water soluble.  Check  micro content of you oarmeal.

Thank you for your response @PhilGeis .

 I want to put my best foot forward before I test…so using the flawed logic of, the more components the better… Would you think Jeecide CAP-5, INCI: Phenoxyethanol (and) Caprylyl Glycol (and) Potassium Sorbate (and) Water (and) Hexylene Glycol, would be a good starting point?  I even thought about adding back Ethylhexylglycerin, so that I had everything the E 9010 had.  Again keeping in mind a pH of right around 6.0.

I looked at one of the leading producers of oat products, and all of their sample formulas were using E 9010.  Not that their examples make it right, just my observation.

I use the phenethyl for two reasons….yes I use rose absolute, and I feel this boosts the fragrance, but I was also under the impression that it did a better job on the head space than E 9010?  I might be wrong.  Since this is a cream, I thought headspace coverage would be important.

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Yes….emulsifiers are like snow flakes….No two are the same.  Each must be studied, and balanced, and selected for the project based on your goals and items included.

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

Yes….emulsifiers…depending on your goals….are ALL about textures.  It is a matter of getting a texture you want, and then also creating the stability that you need….a tight rope act!

Not sure about others…..but always takes me 30-40 iterations…to get what I want.  Maybe I’m just not any good at this?  

Lol. Im sure you’re great at this. You are probably just a perfectionist

Weird question, because my amount of oil is so low, about 7.5%, is glycerin considered oil? Im not sure if I am supposed to count that as oil. Thank you.

Nope…does not count.

If you have an oil and water phase…..generally….EVERYTHING in the oil phase is considered.

Guessing your glycerine…is in the water phase….right?

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Some recommend….first work on your texture…just use the cheapest oil you can find…leave out all actives… and nail down the texture (if that is what you’re after).  
Granted….there are some popular products on the market with awful textures…so that is not what everyone is after.  Maybe I am unique…in chasing texture.  I just need my consumer to have two ‘Ah Hah’ moments….once when their finger touches the product, and a bigger one…when it touches their face.

(Wait…make that 3…. And one the following morning…when they wake and feel their face!)

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Yes….emulsifiers…depending on your goals….are ALL about textures.  It is a matter of getting a texture you want, and then also creating the stability that you need….a tight rope act!

Not sure about others…..but always takes me 30-40 iterations…to get what I want.  Maybe I’m just not any good at this?  

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

elirit .

I asked Pharma the difference between the two, and here is his response:

“Two different things entirely.

GSC is a high HLB emulsifier, GS a low HLB co-emulsifier similar to stearyl alcohol.”

He steered me to GSC early on, when I was struggling with a very difficult emulsion that 165 (by itself) could not hold together.  

GSC is nice in that it does not bring a lot of thickening, so can be added without completely changing what you already have.

Thank you! I bought the GSC from making cosmetics. I will be trying with mont 202, mont 202 with aristoflex, and 165.

Both should make nice emulsions…. You just have to find the one that creates the texture you are looking for.

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elirit said:

And just to clarify, if i add aristoflex or “cones”, I can remove the xanthan gum? Thx

Yes….with the Aristoflex.

The cones have no bearing on stability….. It is used for several purposes, but I think in the context of this thread….it was mentioned to deter soaping.

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

GSC = Glyceryl stearate citrate

I don’t think available from LC.

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

In my opinion….a must have in the tool box…not as a primary, but as a secondary…that does not destroy texture we work so hard to achieve.

I use this at a SUPER low rate….just to stabilize the Montanov’s.

I also use it with 165 at a much higher rate….on a crazy product that I have…that is incredibly hard to emulsify!  Great tandem.

I just realized that I bought glyceryl stearate, not glyceryl stearate citrate . Ok the peptides are syn tc, syn tack and matrixyl 3000. extracts are tumeric and green tea extract. I was looking online for an electrolyte chcker and was unsuccessful. Ok, I’m off to buy GSC. Thanks again.

I asked Pharma the difference between the two, and here is his response:

“Two different things entirely.

GSC is a high HLB emulsifier, GS a low HLB co-emulsifier similar to stearyl alcohol.”

He steered me to GSC early on, when I was struggling with a very difficult emulsion that 165 (by itself) could not hold together.  

GSC is nice in that it does not bring a lot of thickening, so can be added without completely changing what you already have.

[Graillotion]

I also use Sodium Phytate.  When used at such low inclusion rates (.1-.2%) they will still work with Aristoflex.

Your extracts and peptides will have to be analysed on an individual basis.

A classic example would be….Aloe.

[Graillotion]

GSC = Glyceryl stearate citrate

I don’t think available from LC.

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

In my opinion….a must have in the tool box…not as a primary, but as a secondary…that does not destroy texture we work so hard to achieve.

I use this at a SUPER low rate….just to stabilize the Montanov’s.

I also use it with 165 at a much higher rate….on a crazy product that I have…that is incredibly hard to emulsify!  Great tandem.

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Because emulsifiers have different potencies…you have phrased your question in an difficult way to answer.

1) Use the mfg’s website.  They include very detailed instructions.

2) The amount of lipids you use will alter the amount of (the same) emulsifier you use.  10% oils vs 25% oils….changes everything even with the same emulsifier.

3) Some emulsifiers will do at .5% what others will do at 3%

Yes, soaping is worse with some emulsifiers vs others.  But that is usually addressed elsewhere in the formula.  But yes, using more emulsifier than necessary aggravates the situation.

Search ‘soaping’ on this site’s search bar, and your question will be answered over and over, even ways to do it without adding the dreaded dimethicone. 

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If you just use the search box on this site….and type ‘soaping’ … you will get several lunch hours of information.   

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Here is another….for M 68 aka Vegetal:

https://formulabotanica.com/vegetal-emulsifier/

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I think you might find this a fun read:

https://formulabotanica.com/montanov-202-palm-oil-free-emulsifier/

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream.  This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more.

Thank you! I read the same info on lotioncrafter earlier. Today I bought cetyl esters and 165 and alkyl benzoate to trial. Yesterday I decreased eumulgin to 0.5% and 68 to 3.5%(still soapy). Also, does tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate interact with 165 as I have that in my formula. I read it interacts with PEG on one site but have not seen that on other sites. Lastly,  I have 0.4 % xanthan gum in my formula. If the cream is already thick with 68, is there a need for the gum or was it added due to stability? Thanks again. Btw, my cosmetic chemist disappeared after I recceived formula so that is why I am asking certain questions regarding my formula.

If soaping is your issue…we need to approach from a little different angle.

1) M 202 will soap less than M 68

2) Across the board, soaping is typically reduced by adding dimethicone, as          mentioned above.  However…if you are trying to be ‘cone free’….it can be done…but it will be costly!  I use between 8-10% of super slip and slide ingredients to = what dimethicone does.  I don’t think you have posted your full formula…another common culprit….is stearic acid. 
 
3) If you use a polymeric…(plus what you have) you can certainly remove the gum.  But memba…most polymeric’s don’t like your electrolytes.  I think Zen can handle some.  Aristoflex…Nope.  I also use Aristoflex…and love it.  I think a lot of people say….Zen gets a little jiggly above .5%.  So maybe don’t exceed that.

I don’t know anything about tetrahexyldecyl.