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The way you create shear….is have a fixed piece….and another piece that spins near it rapidly.

So the crudest form….is a stick blender with a bell housing.  The Bell…is the fixed piece…and the blade can create some shear in relation to the bell….  Yours has no bell…or no small space to create the shear.  It call only stir rapidly, and make froth.  But suddenly…I have a desire for coffee?

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elirit said:

:smiley: @ coffee recipes. I assumed my bubbles were from my cheap equipment. I wanted to try to get the formula down pat before investing in an homogenizer and a stirrer. 

You will never get the formula down ….. with that. ::smile:

You will never get the formula down ….. with that. ::smile:

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Argh.

I am afraid I can not be of assistance.

If you need some coffee recipes….I’m here for you. 

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What is the product?  I think OGX has many body washes?

I am always looking for a good body wash…just for personal use.

I can not cost effectively create body wash in Hawaii.

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elirit said:

SDS stated melting point is 74 to 78 so I thought I was being smart by heating to 76 lol. Next time I will look at the actual manufacturer site instead of the suppliers site. Ok I think I understand what you are saying regarding emollients. My slip and slide should be at least 10% NOT including natural oils. I was being cheap and just using oil for sampling.  I forgot to answer your question. These are emulsifier trials. I combine them by heating the water phase, then adding emulsifiers with oil to water phase, stirring with a mini mixer from lotioncrafter. Thank you 🙂

Can you post a picture of the mini mixer…. equipment is often more important than any other aspect.

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Directions for using M 202:

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With emulsifiers…it is very important to follow the mfg’s instructions…so when using 202….use the right temp, or you cannot expect the right result.

I think you are missing my meaning….Not your oil phase to 10%…but your ultra light weight emollients to 10%.  Oils do not provide the textures most are looking for.  They are mainly in there for claim reasons.  (If you are using 9% oils + 10% light weight emollients…then you have a 19% oil phase…this not including all the other goodies in the oil phase…like emulsifier, polymerics, misc textural enhancers, etc.)

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You slip and slide ingredients…I consider the most important aspect of the cream…that is what people feel, what gives the first impression…what makes them remember it.  What separates your formula from the mommy blogger formulas.
Do not be monolithic with your slip and slide…they need to vary in viscosity to give the cream depth and texture.  I was taught by the best…”Create a cascading effect of emolliency”  So for the beginner some of these possible options that are easy to acquire, here are three examples…
We’ll start with what I assume you have…. 

C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate

Ethylhexyl Palmitate (Octyl Palmitate)

DERMOFEEL SENSOLV (ISOAMYL LAURATE)

Once you work through your emulsifiers…. experiment with varying levels of these… this will take you to a whole new level…. and start to address your soaping, if you get the levels up to functional amounts.

As the first two are common among suppliers…I will only include a link to the last one…as it is a little harder to find.

Isoamyl laurate (formulatorsampleshop.com)

Other than water….that is the what I use the most of in all my formulas.  (Oops…starting to let secrets out.)

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I am having trouble seeing well….but the cream appears to be either grainy…or bubbly.  Can you clarify.

Are the formulas you listed complete, sans water (emulsifier trials)…or just part of what is in there?

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To decrease soaping without using dimethicone, your slip and slide ingredients need to be approaching 10% (this does not include your natural oils).

you can lose the gum…if you sub in a polymeric emulsifier, which will also enhance texture.  A double win.

165 does very little thickening, so if that is your primary…you’ll need more Eumulgin…or Cetyl alcohol, or 202 as a ‘co’, or polymerics.

Your thin 202… looks like maybe you had a phase inversion…should be way thicker than that.  202 needs to be coupled with an Anionic.   Eumulgin or GSC.

When you make a 202 formula…are you getting it up to that 180-185F (83-85 C) range.  It requires more heat than any of the other common emulsifiers.

Describe in detail…how you combine the phases…. which into which…and with what kind of tool…and rpms, and duration.

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The 50g…is the ending amount of water.  Many start with about 10% extra water, as that is an average amount lost.

I weigh my beakers, and of course know the formula weight, so post emulsion, I toss it back on the scale….top off the water, and emulsify once again.  Since I start with 10% extra, very little is added at that point.  So you only need to weigh the beaker that both phases end up in.

Just remember….a formula always equals 100%.  Never 100% - evaporation.  

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Thank you for all the links @jeremien, I am digging into them now.

Do you know the ratio in the Symdiol 68?  From what I could see….it looks like it was pretty close to 50/50?

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jemolian said:

@helenhelen testing at 3% in 15% Aristoflex Avc, i think it’s hard to tell the difference between the two. Testing at 100% as is, they just feel about equally wet or slightly greasy, so not too much difference there as well. 

I’d say the difference would largely be perhaps the cost and what kind of use rate you’d like to have, besides from the potential irritation that each glycol or diol might cause for the user. Some people do look for Butylene Glycol free products while some people break out from Propanediol due to the high concentration from product range from The Ordinary. 

So what I hear you saying, from a possible marketing approach:  If I am using propanediol and Butylene glycol (which I am), that if I sub them out for hexanediol, Pentylene Glycol, and Caprylyl Glycol, it will be unlikely to change any of the sensories?  However it will enhance hurdles and possibly be more palatable to those scanning an INCI for Butylene and Propanediol?

(I was able to secure SymDiol 68, so hexanediol is back in play!)

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Copy and paste below…from Essential Wholesale lab:

• Semi-Custom Formulation (3 rounds in the lab) making 1-3 “simple” ingredient adjustments in an existing Essential stock product: $475.
• Full Custom Formulation (5 rounds in the lab) making 1-5 from-scratch prototypes to end up with exactly what you want. Most people need fewer than 5 rounds but if you need more, we can accommodate that. Custom formulation services start at $2,100.

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ifamuj said:

Graillotion said:

Yes, there could be a small subset of consumers that have the perception that PEG is bad. You will always find a group of misguided consumers that will balk at every possible ingredient you might include.  I would balk at the fact you had extracts in your product, which I would consider ‘bug food’.  So you can not please everyone, and in the end you need to make the most stable product you can….which would be 165 based.

Yes you can pair it with Emuligin, if you can bear the sensories.

When you say “bug food”, what do you mean by it? What ingredients fall under this category of ingredients?

Here is a quote from @Perry in another thread…that succinctly answers:

“Bug food” is any ingredient on which microbes can eat and grow. This can be sugars, carbohydrates, proteins, or a variety of other hydrocarbons found in cosmetics formulas. 

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Thank you @Pharma.  And so colorful! 

So using propanediol as an example… will something like 2% have much of an effect as a hurdle….or does it need a higher inclusion rate, say 5-6%?

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ggpetrov said:

Why do you have to use two emulsifiers instead of one? As far as I know the Montanov 68 is a stand alone emulsifier, and it already has a built in stabilizer in the name of Cetostearyl alcohol. The same is with the GMS SE. 

Pretty safe to assume you have not worked with the Montanov 68?

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PhilGeis said:

Appreciate you challenge.  Assumje you’ve ruled out formaldehyde releasers (?).
pH 6 isn’t great for sorbic acid, and benzoate might be a better choice if you can ,lower the pH.  Is 6 cast in stone?
Suggest you start testing and see what breaks through.

Thank you @P@PhilGeis

I am keeping the pH around 6 due to use of Nicotinamide, USP grade.  So I like to be a hair below 6 and above 5.5.

Yes, I was trying to not use the F releasers.

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MarkBroussard said:

If the pH of the end product is below 6.0:

Gluconolactone + Sodium Benzoate + Phenethyl Alcohol as preservatives, and
Sodium Glutamate Diacetate + Propanediol and/or Pentylene Glycol as potentiators

Is Sodium Phytate and acceptable sub for Sodium Glutamate Diacetate?  I already use Propanediol in everything.  Thank you @MarkBroussard.

Is that doubling up the chelator?  (Gluconolactone and Sodium Glutamate Diacetate)

Will this work…if pH is just barely below 6?  Thinking 5.5-5.8?

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PhilGeis said:

Preservation of products with “colloidal oatmeal”  is an experiment that requires preservative testing your confident. and prob a round or 2 including aged product before your coonfident.  Llook at the similar products on  the shelvees now.  You’ve phenoxyethyl alcohol - why add less effective phenethyl - unless its for rose odor?   Additions should be the more water soluble.  Check  micro content of you oarmeal.

Thank you for your response @PhilGeis .

 I want to put my best foot forward before I test…so using the flawed logic of, the more components the better… Would you think Jeecide CAP-5, INCI: Phenoxyethanol (and) Caprylyl Glycol (and) Potassium Sorbate (and) Water (and) Hexylene Glycol, would be a good starting point?  I even thought about adding back Ethylhexylglycerin, so that I had everything the E 9010 had.  Again keeping in mind a pH of right around 6.0.

I looked at one of the leading producers of oat products, and all of their sample formulas were using E 9010.  Not that their examples make it right, just my observation.

I use the phenethyl for two reasons….yes I use rose absolute, and I feel this boosts the fragrance, but I was also under the impression that it did a better job on the head space than E 9010?  I might be wrong.  Since this is a cream, I thought headspace coverage would be important.

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Yes….emulsifiers are like snow flakes….No two are the same.  Each must be studied, and balanced, and selected for the project based on your goals and items included.

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

Yes….emulsifiers…depending on your goals….are ALL about textures.  It is a matter of getting a texture you want, and then also creating the stability that you need….a tight rope act!

Not sure about others…..but always takes me 30-40 iterations…to get what I want.  Maybe I’m just not any good at this?  

Lol. Im sure you’re great at this. You are probably just a perfectionist

Weird question, because my amount of oil is so low, about 7.5%, is glycerin considered oil? Im not sure if I am supposed to count that as oil. Thank you.

Nope…does not count.

If you have an oil and water phase…..generally….EVERYTHING in the oil phase is considered.

Guessing your glycerine…is in the water phase….right?

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Some recommend….first work on your texture…just use the cheapest oil you can find…leave out all actives… and nail down the texture (if that is what you’re after).  
Granted….there are some popular products on the market with awful textures…so that is not what everyone is after.  Maybe I am unique…in chasing texture.  I just need my consumer to have two ‘Ah Hah’ moments….once when their finger touches the product, and a bigger one…when it touches their face.

(Wait…make that 3…. And one the following morning…when they wake and feel their face!)

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Yes….emulsifiers…depending on your goals….are ALL about textures.  It is a matter of getting a texture you want, and then also creating the stability that you need….a tight rope act!

Not sure about others…..but always takes me 30-40 iterations…to get what I want.  Maybe I’m just not any good at this?  

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

elirit .

I asked Pharma the difference between the two, and here is his response:

“Two different things entirely.

GSC is a high HLB emulsifier, GS a low HLB co-emulsifier similar to stearyl alcohol.”

He steered me to GSC early on, when I was struggling with a very difficult emulsion that 165 (by itself) could not hold together.  

GSC is nice in that it does not bring a lot of thickening, so can be added without completely changing what you already have.

Thank you! I bought the GSC from making cosmetics. I will be trying with mont 202, mont 202 with aristoflex, and 165.

Both should make nice emulsions…. You just have to find the one that creates the texture you are looking for.