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Pharma said:

Placebo isn’t a thing of belief, it’s real, proven, and scientific. 40% of pain killer activity is actually placebo effect and it is taken into account by big pharma. We know for example what causes ‘placebo’ pain relief, we can block it with certain drugs and we can provoke it in the few subjects devoid of any by administer the right drugs. What we don’t know is why on earth our body do produce placebo effects. It’s not, or rather not entirely, dependent on conciousness, memory, experience, belief, or the like because it does also exist in babies and animals. It may be to some part the ‘ritual’ (caring for a crying baby or a whining dog) which triggers it? In adults, homoeopathy doesn’t works in a clinical setting (double-blinded etc.) but in real life situations, it does. There are several reasons why, just ask a pregnant woman who’s not allowed to take anything ‘useful’ (chemical). Many would tell you that a tea, some globules or a herbal poultice work great. These probably have a pharmacological action (though weak) but they certainly help because said woman can actually do something actively against her illness/discomfort and it also helps kill time till it gets better by itself. It’s a win and if you don’t ask for the how, it ‘really’ works. Your reality isn’t what is out there, it’s what you perceive, what your brain interprets from a fraction of inputs it gets from your environment.

The world is still a mysterious place full of awe and wonder! From a scientific and psychological point of view, magick (not stage magic) is real (depending on the definition of magick, of course I’m not talking Harry Potter here 🙂 ).

My point exactly….an ingredient list that will almost heal them upon reading. 😉

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Pattsi said:

Graillotion said:

For CBD (Isolate) topical…I seem to find a trend of about 1%.  Does that seem reasonable?

seem about right if it doesn’t break your cream but seem expensive.

Has CBD isolate been known to break emulsions?
If so…I can tweak the one I have…as it is not very bullet proof.  I can add some 165 in there….since this one won’t be about the ‘amazing tactile’ experience…  Probably going to be an ugly brown color anyway.
I am already imagining a cream so ugly that only a mother could love it.  Might even use the word ‘salve’ instead of cream.  

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Pattsi said:

It’s sublingual/oral dose recommendation.
There’s still no topical recommendation issued yet, the mechanism involved  central nervous system so CBD cream would unlikely works. But who knows it might works for some.

Methyl salicylate, don’t know it is available in cosmetic re-packers?

Since Oregon decriminalizes small amounts of Heroin and Cocaine, you might look into it as well, but be veryyyyyyyyy careful.

For CBD (Isolate) topical…I seem to find a trend of about 1%.  Does that seem reasonable?

Regarding Methyl Salicylate….. Isn’t that pretty much what Wintergreen EO is?

I am looking at Paeonol from Chinese medicine.

I am a FIRM believer in the placebo effect, so some of these ingredients will be included to ‘convince’ people it works.    

Mission accomplished.  

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I’m with Perry on this one.  Drink the tea while making it, and replace with water.  Then evaluate the difference.

Back when I started…I also used tea….now….NEVER.

Focus on those things that might actually work…. B3, Bisabobol, quality oils and humectants (maybe even ceramides…if you can include enough to be functional).

Customers will buy your product for the smell, texture and packaging.  GT does not enhance either of their trigger points.

Your faith/belief system…in a claim ingredient will not make it functional, lean more towards the science, and less towards the marketing you have seen and read.

Polyphenols  have been used historically as dyes and for tanning garments.  So in high enough levels…might make a self-tanner.

I have sampled literally hundreds of versions of lotions and creams…..and it always goes like this:  Smell…and mind is made up.  If I hand them  4 identical products where only the fragrance is different…they will look me straight in the eye…and tell me how superior the one they like the smell of….performs and feels!   Hate to say it…. Get your fragrance right….and you are almost done. 

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Pattsi said:

If you want to play with CBD
Recommended Dose - THC:CBD (1:1) 15 – 60 mg/d

And salicylates for superficial pain.

Is that CBD recommendation….an oral one?
What would the inclusion rate be for a cream?

What form can I readily find salicylates in?  (From cosmetic re-packers?)  The willow bark extracts?

Thank you… I will look into them.

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Pharma said:

Ascorbic acid is a stronger antioxidant than tocopherol and other phenolics. If you want to protect these, go with ascorbic acid for water soluble compounds or ascorbyl palmitate for oil soluble ones. 

Good read @Pharma, as you know I have a super duper oxidation issue with one of me developments, and I will try it today with both ascorbic acid and ascorbyl palmitate.  That way I working in both phases.  I did make an observation a while back, which I was not able to scientifically metabolize, I have that antioxidant blend I use (costly) that contains ascorbyl palmitate, various forms of E etc.  When I used that in one of the samples of said product, it seemed to have the most reduced oxidation.  I thought it was just my imagination….but maybe I/we are on to something!
Thank You

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I should add….due to the CoQ10….that is a very orange oil.  But nothing Montanov 202 can’t whiten back up.

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I use this (at 1%), and ROE of course in ever product.  Works well.

DermaFix - Natural Skin Protection (ingredientstodiefor.com)

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PhilGeis said:

  How clean is your otameal 

“Total count less than 100 colonies per gram.
Absence of recognized pathogens.”

Would that be considered pretty clean?  

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Bo77 said:

“Do you consider beta glucan…an equal level of bug food as colloidal oatmeal?  I would assume less….but do not know the entire chemistry.”

What I tried ( long time ago) was VenaSilk,( I think). Naturally derived from oat flour. 10% BG. INCI: hydrolyzed oat flour. ( hated it) but that’s not the point. ) 

What did you hate about it?

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jemolian said:

pH 6 is the based on one of the recommendations i’ve seen, however recommended pH range varies from pH 5 to 7.5 based on different sources. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kqauq2uleybsrp9/RonaCare_Nicotinamide_TDS_.pdf?dl=0

Using Niacinamide in an acidic formulation

Thank You.

You always have such helpful links and graphs!

If I can take things to 5.0…I will have a vast array of products to help in preservation!

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Bo77 said:

I love to add Sodium Hydroxymethylglycinate to my preservative combo. It goes under Suttocide A from Ashland. But it’s formaldehyde releaser, I don’t know if you looking for something more “natural”. But it’s “naturally derived”. I mix it with other preservatives like Silver Citrate and Citric Acid( Silverion) and bacillus ferment like AMTicide VAF(great for mold and yeast) this combo works very well for my products. Not all but most. Worked for cream with beta glucan in it.

EDIT: now I see you are looking for something no f releaser. Sorry.

Looking for: Yes
Will end up with: Not sure.

Do you consider beta glucan…an equal level of bug food as colloidal oatmeal?  I would assume less….but do not know the entire chemistry.

So on that note…. and this question is for everyone….of the F releasers, which one is most likely to fly under the consumer radar….as in which one will they most likely  not be aware of….yet is still effective at a low rate?

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Bo77 said:

Around 5 is  fine. No problem. My face creams always come around 4.8 to 5.5. Never had any issues with regular niacinamide. I don’t remember who but some known company formulate some creams with B3 and their pH  is high 4 low 5. They wrote about it. And Paula’s choice is going even lower, I think. But that would be pushing it, probably. Try it and you’ll see, right? 

Yes I am well aware of this.  However I always assumed when they were going into the lower ranges…there were using C6H6N2O, which can go there without issue.  Unfortunately… Both forms have the exact same INCI…so one can never know!

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PhilGeis said:

I’d not expect much from triethyl citrate and wonder at phenethyl if 9010. 
 Look at similar, marketed products, esp. those from major companies.  Think adding a more water soluble preservative and something for fungi will help. Are you budgeted to do range finding PET testing?  

Yes, but only once or twice.  Therefore trying to get it right, before spending the money.  Which (more) water soluble preservatives would you have in mind?

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Bo77 said:

For CBD I use only my local guys where I know the quality, I don’t buy CBD wholesale, that’s why it’s expensive. 

Thank You.  As I do not have ‘local guys’…I had searched…and found  ‘LaurelCrest’ which seemed to have a professional website…..(I know…I know)…  Was just curious if anyone can list a reputable seller of high quality CBD and reasonable prices?

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PhilGeis said:

It is a project - prob end up with a complex system.

I did not realize until just in the past 48 hours, that triethyl citrate is used as a preservative.  I keep this on the bench for another product.  Just curious how you felt this fit into a program of E. 9010, chelator, Pentylene glycol, Phenethyl alcohol?  Redundancy or extra layer?

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PhilGeis said:

The bugs don’t need much to contaminate.  Oatmeal certainly works for them as pharma said and also redcues preservative efficacy.

So I have spent way too many hours, trying to formulate a preservative program to accommodate the colloidal oatmeal, and have not yet come up with a component that I am comfortable with….that is neither a paraben or F releaser.  Does it exist?

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One of my most valuable tools for me, has been a row of small clear bottles in a sunny window.  This is various generations of lotion, and experiments.  Some fell apart over time, and others look pristine after 10-11 months in a sunny window.  Information that you cannot buy!  Only of value if you mark the bottles with some sort of formula coding.
Therefore…the 3 cents of preservative it took, is well worth while to simulate an actual product.   And to second what Phil said….they change a product!  You will never know when you have the texture you want, if you are not working will a full deck.

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Are you familiar with the search bar in the top right corner?
Use that, and you will have hours upon hours of great reading.

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However…if your only goal is to get Chamazolene, then see the following link, it has 5X the amount of the blue Tansy.  One of the amazing parts of New Directions….They provide complete GCMS analysis of all their products, which I have found invaluable when I am looking for certain constituents. 

If you look at the GCMS of all the types of Chamomile they sell….there is a HUGE variation in the Chamazolene content.  Below is 22%.  (just part of the GCMS pasted below.)

Chamomile Moroc Essential Oil at Wholesale Prices (newdirectionsaromatics.com)

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Why not just buy it from the best EO supplier around???

Tansy Blue Essential Oil at Wholesale prices (newdirectionsaromatics.com)

They don’t sell fake stuff…like many of the sellers on the net.

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Seems like a reasonable formula, other than the Allantoin at 2%.

Just curious, since Allantoin is only .57%  soluble in water, are you using the other portion as a derm abrasion product?

Allantoin solubility:

Water: 0.57% (25 °C); ethanol (96%): 0.04% (25 °C); eth/water (1/1): 0.35% (25 °C); propylene glycol/water (1/1): 0.40% (25 °C); glycerol/water (1/1): 0.60% (25 °C)

Or is there a better solubilizer I am not aware of?

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Mele Kalikimaka

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ngarayeva001 said:

They make great shampoos too. Argan oil is their most known I believe. This is what I used to buy before I started dabbling in surfactants. All of them are made of Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate and CAPB. Some include SCI (looking at position at LOI I would guess at low%). I am lucky as olefin sulfonate is dirt cheap in the UK, so it’s one of my favorite anionic surfactants.

Just for my curiosity….looking at that INCI of the Argan Shampoo….what would you guess it the inclusion rate? Thinking .1% or did they go crazy…and put .5% in there?

INCI:  Water (Aqua), Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, PPG-2 Hydroxyethyl Coco/Isostearamide, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Kernel Oil, Panthenol, Dimethicone, Amodimethicone, Glycol Stearate, PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Polyquaternium-6, Polyquaternium-10, Laureth-4, Laureth-23, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Cetrimonium Chloride, Trideceth-12, Citric Acid, Fragrance (Parfum), Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Chloride, Diazolidinyl Urea, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Yellow 5 (CI 19140), Red 40 (CI 16035).

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Regarding the mattifying effects of Montanov 202, it provides a matte finish or application on the skin. As it’s not a sebum absorber like Polymethylsilsesquioxane or starches, so it doesn’t really mattify oily skin. For example, one of the reason i use Montanov 202 is that i use about 1.5% to 3% of Squalane for my body lotion, 202 provides a matte look so i don’t look as shiny compared to other emulsifiers. 

Regarding stability wise, my gel creams created with Olivem 1000, Montanov 68, 202, L, etc, has been stable and has never spilt over time, it depends on your combination. I always use Aristoflex or Sepinov EMT 10 as my main emulsifier and the traditional emulsifiers are there to add stability by reducing the oil particle size.  

I will second what J said.  Working with the Montanov series simply requires working within the mfg’s parameters.  Getting the temp right, suporting with anionic co-emulsifiers, and adding polymerics for texture and one more layer of stability.  I have never had a Montanov cream break post production. If you cream splits soon after production, than you have not met the requirements that emulsifier needed, or you added an ingredient that was upsetting the system.

And matte appearance is dictated far more with your other components.  I think what the mfg is saying is: It is certainly possible to create a matte finish with 202, as it is not shiny in and of itself.