Graillotion
Forum Replies Created
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Are you familiar with the search bar in the top right corner?
Use that, and you will have hours upon hours of great reading. -
However…if your only goal is to get Chamazolene, then see the following link, it has 5X the amount of the blue Tansy. One of the amazing parts of New Directions….They provide complete GCMS analysis of all their products, which I have found invaluable when I am looking for certain constituents.
If you look at the GCMS of all the types of Chamomile they sell….there is a HUGE variation in the Chamazolene content. Below is 22%. (just part of the GCMS pasted below.)
Chamomile Moroc Essential Oil at Wholesale Prices (newdirectionsaromatics.com)
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Why not just buy it from the best EO supplier around???
Tansy Blue Essential Oil at Wholesale prices (newdirectionsaromatics.com)
They don’t sell fake stuff…like many of the sellers on the net.
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Seems like a reasonable formula, other than the Allantoin at 2%.
Just curious, since Allantoin is only .57% soluble in water, are you using the other portion as a derm abrasion product?
Allantoin solubility:
Water: 0.57% (25 °C); ethanol (96%): 0.04% (25 °C); eth/water (1/1): 0.35% (25 °C); propylene glycol/water (1/1): 0.40% (25 °C); glycerol/water (1/1): 0.60% (25 °C)
Or is there a better solubilizer I am not aware of?
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Mele Kalikimaka
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ngarayeva001 said:They make great shampoos too. Argan oil is their most known I believe. This is what I used to buy before I started dabbling in surfactants. All of them are made of Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate and CAPB. Some include SCI (looking at position at LOI I would guess at low%). I am lucky as olefin sulfonate is dirt cheap in the UK, so it’s one of my favorite anionic surfactants.
Just for my curiosity….looking at that INCI of the Argan Shampoo….what would you guess it the inclusion rate? Thinking .1% or did they go crazy…and put .5% in there?
INCI: Water (Aqua), Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, PPG-2 Hydroxyethyl Coco/Isostearamide, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Kernel Oil, Panthenol, Dimethicone, Amodimethicone, Glycol Stearate, PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Polyquaternium-6, Polyquaternium-10, Laureth-4, Laureth-23, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Cetrimonium Chloride, Trideceth-12, Citric Acid, Fragrance (Parfum), Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Chloride, Diazolidinyl Urea, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Yellow 5 (CI 19140), Red 40 (CI 16035).
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Regarding the mattifying effects of Montanov 202, it provides a matte finish or application on the skin. As it’s not a sebum absorber like Polymethylsilsesquioxane or starches, so it doesn’t really mattify oily skin. For example, one of the reason i use Montanov 202 is that i use about 1.5% to 3% of Squalane for my body lotion, 202 provides a matte look so i don’t look as shiny compared to other emulsifiers.
Regarding stability wise, my gel creams created with Olivem 1000, Montanov 68, 202, L, etc, has been stable and has never spilt over time, it depends on your combination. I always use Aristoflex or Sepinov EMT 10 as my main emulsifier and the traditional emulsifiers are there to add stability by reducing the oil particle size.
I will second what J said. Working with the Montanov series simply requires working within the mfg’s parameters. Getting the temp right, suporting with anionic co-emulsifiers, and adding polymerics for texture and one more layer of stability. I have never had a Montanov cream break post production. If you cream splits soon after production, than you have not met the requirements that emulsifier needed, or you added an ingredient that was upsetting the system.
And matte appearance is dictated far more with your other components. I think what the mfg is saying is: It is certainly possible to create a matte finish with 202, as it is not shiny in and of itself.
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Cafe33 said:Which silicon dioxide did you?
Aerosil 200
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Cafe33 said:Hi, what is it that you are trying to do again? There are patents on using Silicon Dioxide as part of a perfume encapsulation system. Usually something like like 2-5% of the total system is used with the perfume consisting of 30% or so.
My experience:
Cafe33 said:Yes colloidal silicon dioxide will absorb oil fairly efficiently from my experience. My first test was to place some peppermint oil onto some Aerosil. I think I used something like 1g of Oil to 0.5g of Aerosil. It absorbed it fully and remained in solid state, powder was still “flowable”. I left it in an open beakers for weeks, even well past a month and the smell was just as strong as day 1 (IMO). Keep in mind that it was Summer months, and the room Temp could climb to 30-31C.That is what I can offer. As for leave on skin products concerning abrasion, I do not know. My experience relates to oral use and rinse off hair products. I did make some oil gels using Aerosil with almond, Jojoba and natrasil oils if I remember, and there is some documentation through Evoniks that details percentages to use and viscosity of different oils. Maybe you can look into it by contacting Evoniks?
As for the rinse off products, 45-50% Aerosil use according to fragrance was definitely impressive. I think your testing range should be 10-50% based on the fragrance.
As I am working on a mosquito repellent, I am only looking for a few hours of retention. I did some trials, and yes silicon dioxide has an uncanny ability to absorb oil. One dish was in a solid paste state (Grapefruit essential oil), one was at about a syrup stage, and of course had one that was just pure EO. At 48 hours, I could not detect an enhancement of scent retention in the oils containing silicon dioxide. So at this time I will not pursue this avenue. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
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elirit said:Also how do you feel about ethylhexyl palmitate and acne?
Those were just 3 examples of lite emollients. No thought given to comedogenic ratings.
I use it only in body/hand lotions now. It has not been included in my face creams.
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That stick blender is one of the few….that is infinitely adjustable…so can run at 0 rpm, 100 rpm 1000 rpm or 10,000 rpm +… So it can both emulsify…and stir a bit at really low rpm. (I only do that with warm lotion…which is thin at the time.) Depending on which emulsifier you are using….they can be very sensitive to the equipment used during stirring… If you want total forgiveness…use the 165 emulsifier + thickners.
However…it can not stir for long amounts of time (will get too hot)….so not an adequate stirrer….plus anything like that is ineffective for stirring something thick like a cream.
You would laugh…if you saw my stirrer.
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Look at this picture (what I use).
Not saying that is what you need…but a good start. With the attachment on the right…you can create gifts for friends that love you.
With the attachment on the left… You can sell products.
On the left…you see how close the tolerance is between the bell…and the blades….that is how you create shear / emulsion.
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The way you create shear….is have a fixed piece….and another piece that spins near it rapidly.
So the crudest form….is a stick blender with a bell housing. The Bell…is the fixed piece…and the blade can create some shear in relation to the bell…. Yours has no bell…or no small space to create the shear. It call only stir rapidly, and make froth. But suddenly…I have a desire for coffee?
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elirit said::smiley: @ coffee recipes. I assumed my bubbles were from my cheap equipment. I wanted to try to get the formula down pat before investing in an homogenizer and a stirrer.
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Argh.
I am afraid I can not be of assistance.
If you need some coffee recipes….I’m here for you.
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What is the product? I think OGX has many body washes?
I am always looking for a good body wash…just for personal use.
I can not cost effectively create body wash in Hawaii.
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elirit said:SDS stated melting point is 74 to 78 so I thought I was being smart by heating to 76 lol. Next time I will look at the actual manufacturer site instead of the suppliers site. Ok I think I understand what you are saying regarding emollients. My slip and slide should be at least 10% NOT including natural oils. I was being cheap and just using oil for sampling. I forgot to answer your question. These are emulsifier trials. I combine them by heating the water phase, then adding emulsifiers with oil to water phase, stirring with a mini mixer from lotioncrafter. Thank you 🙂
Can you post a picture of the mini mixer…. equipment is often more important than any other aspect.
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Directions for using M 202:
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With emulsifiers…it is very important to follow the mfg’s instructions…so when using 202….use the right temp, or you cannot expect the right result.
I think you are missing my meaning….Not your oil phase to 10%…but your ultra light weight emollients to 10%. Oils do not provide the textures most are looking for. They are mainly in there for claim reasons. (If you are using 9% oils + 10% light weight emollients…then you have a 19% oil phase…this not including all the other goodies in the oil phase…like emulsifier, polymerics, misc textural enhancers, etc.)
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You slip and slide ingredients…I consider the most important aspect of the cream…that is what people feel, what gives the first impression…what makes them remember it. What separates your formula from the mommy blogger formulas.
Do not be monolithic with your slip and slide…they need to vary in viscosity to give the cream depth and texture. I was taught by the best…”Create a cascading effect of emolliency” So for the beginner some of these possible options that are easy to acquire, here are three examples…
We’ll start with what I assume you have….C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate
Ethylhexyl Palmitate (Octyl Palmitate)
DERMOFEEL SENSOLV (ISOAMYL LAURATE)
Once you work through your emulsifiers…. experiment with varying levels of these… this will take you to a whole new level…. and start to address your soaping, if you get the levels up to functional amounts.As the first two are common among suppliers…I will only include a link to the last one…as it is a little harder to find.
Isoamyl laurate (formulatorsampleshop.com)
Other than water….that is the what I use the most of in all my formulas. (Oops…starting to let secrets out.)
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I am having trouble seeing well….but the cream appears to be either grainy…or bubbly. Can you clarify.
Are the formulas you listed complete, sans water (emulsifier trials)…or just part of what is in there?
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To decrease soaping without using dimethicone, your slip and slide ingredients need to be approaching 10% (this does not include your natural oils).
you can lose the gum…if you sub in a polymeric emulsifier, which will also enhance texture. A double win.
165 does very little thickening, so if that is your primary…you’ll need more Eumulgin…or Cetyl alcohol, or 202 as a ‘co’, or polymerics.
Your thin 202… looks like maybe you had a phase inversion…should be way thicker than that. 202 needs to be coupled with an Anionic. Eumulgin or GSC.
When you make a 202 formula…are you getting it up to that 180-185F (83-85 C) range. It requires more heat than any of the other common emulsifiers.
Describe in detail…how you combine the phases…. which into which…and with what kind of tool…and rpms, and duration.
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The 50g…is the ending amount of water. Many start with about 10% extra water, as that is an average amount lost.
I weigh my beakers, and of course know the formula weight, so post emulsion, I toss it back on the scale….top off the water, and emulsify once again. Since I start with 10% extra, very little is added at that point. So you only need to weigh the beaker that both phases end up in.
Just remember….a formula always equals 100%. Never 100% - evaporation.
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Thank you for all the links @jeremien, I am digging into them now.
Do you know the ratio in the Symdiol 68? From what I could see….it looks like it was pretty close to 50/50?
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jemolian said:@helenhelen testing at 3% in 15% Aristoflex Avc, i think it’s hard to tell the difference between the two. Testing at 100% as is, they just feel about equally wet or slightly greasy, so not too much difference there as well.
I’d say the difference would largely be perhaps the cost and what kind of use rate you’d like to have, besides from the potential irritation that each glycol or diol might cause for the user. Some people do look for Butylene Glycol free products while some people break out from Propanediol due to the high concentration from product range from The Ordinary.
So what I hear you saying, from a possible marketing approach: If I am using propanediol and Butylene glycol (which I am), that if I sub them out for hexanediol, Pentylene Glycol, and Caprylyl Glycol, it will be unlikely to change any of the sensories? However it will enhance hurdles and possibly be more palatable to those scanning an INCI for Butylene and Propanediol?
(I was able to secure SymDiol 68, so hexanediol is back in play!)